# Mafia: The Thrill of the Chase \[Newbie Friendly!\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 20, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526 "2011-11-20T06:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1021 "2011-12-20T19:52:01Z")
It was definitely Hirka I was thinking of. In this post [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14555796&postcount=663](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14555796&postcount=663) But it’s entirely possible special ed stated something similar. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1022 "2011-12-20T19:54:55Z")
Ah, right, so I was wrong to doubt you. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1023 "2011-12-20T21:23:08Z")
In Post #706 (below) you state that you find **septimus** ’s claim ‘most likely credible’, and offer some convincing (to me) reasons for believing that. You also make a case that there probably is no vig, since if there had been, he would have probably tried to test **septimus** ’s claim. And yet in posts #970 and #971 (also below) you go back to believing that there might be a vig, and that **septimus** ’s claim might be a lie. The basis for this is that he allegedly messed with his PM - but there is every reason to assume that non-identical PMs were sent out to begin with to prevent handshaking. You, **Fubbleskag** , and **Hirka** say that it is strange that he has not commented on it, but what do you expect him to say? There’s no way that he can prove he did not change it, just like there is no way you can prove your PM says what you say it says. And yet, in spite of 1) your previous belief that **septimus** ’s claim was legit; 2) the very limited amount of evidence that PM titles have to offer, you even vote for **septimus** , right after \*\*Hirka \*\*does so (post 968). Can you explain this change? Now that \*\*septimus \*\*has replied, will you change your vote? **Hirka** , if you read this, what about you - \*\*septimus \*\*is back and has responded, are you going to keep your vote in place? **Post #706** [spoiler] > [@fluiddruid](#): > > Yes. 🙂 I find the claim most likely credible, especially given the timing, when I think it was a reasonable possibility we had a Vig. (I don’t think we do based on info since that time, see below, but it was a reasonable assumption given Night One.) > > It’s a hell of a scum strategy to claim Doctor and invite a Vigilante kill. Not only is Doctor really hard to claim – it’s very easy to falsify in the long run – inviting the Vig to target them adds a lot to that. The only way a scum player would do this is if: > > 1 - For some reason, the scum team knows for sure that there’s no Vigilante. That seems unlikely. Scum generally don’t get investigator powers and it’s unlikely the mod would tip off if there was a serial killer (rather than a vig). > > 2 - It’s a scum player with some sort of revenge kill power, killing the attacker. Possible but unlikely. That’s a pretty uncommon power, this is a newbie-friendly game, and it’s a hella ballsy move to say “Hey! Please night kill me, guys!” if that’s your power. And it’d be a damn powerful role for Scum to get to kill the attacker AND live themselves. > > 3 - It’s a scum roleblocker. An unlikely power and I wouldn’t want to tip off the group with a Doc claim unless I was in a hell of a lot more danger than **Septimus** was. > > I just don’t find any of these too likely. It seems most likely that what is apparent is what is true – **Septimus** , knowing he was the Doctor, decided to out himself because he really didn’t want to risk a lynch. Doctors tend to claim fairly early when pressed, in my experience. That seems fair enough. > > What’s interesting is that the vig, if he exists, didn’t attempt to verify the claim since there are two dead. That’s why I’m at the point where I don’t think we have a Vig. The kills we’re getting don’t seem to indicate that. Instead, the extra night-killer seems to be targeting lurkers. This seems more likely a Serial Killer strategy. If I were serial killer, I’d be thinking: > > 1 - There’s probably some power role out there that is intended to counteract me. > > 2 - Power roles tend to lurk less; they have more to lose and, let’s face it, the game’s more interesting when you’ve got a power role. > > 3 - Since I just need to hit a numerical target, killing lurkers early in the game is the least risky route. > > It’s very possible I’m wrong but if we have a Vig, he doesn’t seem to be a cooperative one – maybe it’s **special ed** , for example (no offense meant, but you have to admit you like to go your own way on things). It does make sense on some level to target lurkers as a Vig too of course, but with a claimed Doctor who’s asking to be confirmed, I’d sure as hell have tried to – even if I wasn’t willing to tip my hat to my identity just yet. > > Anyway, just my thoughts but I wouldn’t count on assistance from our “vig” one way or the other. [/spoiler] **Post #970** [spoiler] > [@fluiddruid](#): > > That is a strange change, so that’s a solid vote. FWIW I checked my PM and it does indeed say (mafia) on it, and I’m town-aligned (not that I can verify it, just want to provide another data point – I’m sure other townies will do the same for their own PMs). I don’t think this really sank in for me yesterday for whatever reason, but on consideration, it’s pretty alarming. > > I’m surprised we haven’t had a counter-claim by this point but I’m sure that drawing out the Doc is half the point of a false Doc claim. While it’s a small change, it also doesn’t sit right – only scum (or third party) players would have needed to change this. Barring an honest-to-goodness GM mistake – which I would hope to have been outed by now, hella bad as it is – I just don’t see the reason why anyone would need to modify their PM at all. The town justification for a dishonest claim is pretty thin to begin with, and even if I believed that, it seems extra alarming that this is in an area that would affect only alignment, not role. > > I do still plan to research other candidates tomorrow – if for nothing else to see what we can glean from our successful lynch before we get too much additional stuff to deal with – but I’m leaving this vote in the interest of getting **septimus** to step up here. I have to admit I can’t think of a good reason for this to be an honest error. > > **vote septimus** [/spoiler] **Post #971** [spoiler] [QUOTE=FluidDruid] I was expecting a double-kill too, of course, but it’s not too surprising. It’s still pretty likely that we have a Doc or other roleblocker out there; perhaps the Vig (?) finally did target septimus, which would be interesting in light of the current controversy about his claim. It’s also possible that the Vig/SK and the scum team targeted the same person, the Vig intentionally decided not to kill anyone, or that the conditions for the extra kill somehow weren’t met. I’m guessing on a successful block because our Vig/SK was plenty trigger happy so far, there’s no real reason to hold off now when there’s a known scum identification to work off of – and for a newbie-friendly game to have complicated kill conditions seems unlikely. [/QUOTE] [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1024 "2011-12-20T21:25:28Z")
**Vote count** Septimus (2) - Hirka (968), FluidDruid (970) Fubbleskag (2) - Švejk (994), Silver Jan (1006) Choie (1) - Mahaloth (997) Special Ed (1) - Scathach (1007) Not voting: PCM, Fubbleskag, Septimus, Special Ed, Choie, MentalGuy ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1025 "2011-12-20T21:31:12Z")
NETA: The title of post #1023 should have been left empty. The post is addressed to **FluidDruid** , and a little bit to **Hirka** , but where it says ‘in post #706 you …’, the you is directed at FluidDruid alone, as are all other ‘yous’ in that post except for the one in the last sentence addressed to **Hirka**. Sorry 'bout that 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1026 "2011-12-21T00:41:25Z")
Vote Count: septimus (2): Hirka T’Bawa, fluiddruid choie (2): Mahaloth, Septimus Special Ed (1): Scathach fubbleskag (1): Silver Jan > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Trepa, Order of operations question. If we do have a vig and a doctor, if the doc self protects, the vig targets him, and the scum NK the vig. Does the vig get his shot off? Not asking you to confirm anyone, just “if” we do, how would it resolve at night? Hypothetically speaking, yes, the vig gets his shot off. Not that the doctor would die either way, of course. > [@choie](#): > > Trepa, can you please nudge **Precambrianmollusc**? Yeah, I’ll do that. Dunno if he’ll show up though… ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1027 "2011-12-21T02:49:47Z")
Thanks for the answer and the nudge, **Trepa**! > [@septimus](#): > > With one exception, I’ve no strong Scum suspects. > [@septimus](#): > > I only have one strong Scum candidate right now. > [@septimus](#): > > [Meanwhile I place my vote on the one player pinging me most strongly as Scum. Gee, anyone else getting the feeling that he’s placed his vote on the one strong scum candidate? 😃 (Who was it again who was jibing **Mental Guy** and **Hirka** for only having a couple of “scum leaners” on their list? I think it was **Svejk** if my memory serves me correctly. So why is **septimus** ’s sole candidate much better? Just 'cause he harps on it thrice?) > [@](#): > > 1. I’ve never been able to sway Players with my words. (In recent games, I’ve been first to identify three Scum in three separate games: Blaster Master, metallic squink, storyteller. In each case the clues that made sense to me didn’t appeal to others, and the Lynches didn’t happen till others made cases.) > 2. Even if I could delay my Lynch without claiming, suspicions would continue to be a distraction and I’d probably have to claim the next Day anyway. I make no comment on #1, since I don’t know your style well enough. But as far as #2 goes, do you not see that if you’d waited another Night, you might have at least saved _someone_ by doing your job? That early reveal basically cost us a doctor, since now all your efforts will be to remain alive yourself. That may be understandable in real life, but your Mafia Hippocratic Oath is to aim for a Town win, not self-survival. It’s not “First, do no harm,” it’s “First, do no harm to your Town team.” But that’s exactly what you did, IMHO. Maybe it wasn’t intentional, but I can’t fathom how you can’t see how you’ve castrated yourself. BTW, I must ask even at the risk of another skimming accusation (but chalk it up to my having a poor memory), but can you remind me whom you protected on Night #1? > [@septimus](#): > > And, most important, 3) As I’ve explained twice already, I was out-of-touch at the time. The post in question was made at 2:03 AM my time. I then went to bed, got up early, and went straight to an appointment without breakfast. I did get a mid-day break, but spent it on Japanese restaurant lunch rather than Internet. (The waitress got my order wrong, but I didn’t even complain. Is that what Scum would do? 😃 ) Surely scum would’ve dressed up as a busboy, sneaked into the kitchen, stolen a huge plate of sushi, and skedaddled without paying the bill! 🙂 > [@septimus](#): > > That you call attention to that time again after I already explained makes me think you’re skimming me, or pursuing a case without logic. Yes. Skimming is a bad, bad thing. > [@septimus](#): > > And, I see on preview, Choie addressing Hirka, "I have to question your motivation for posting something that essentially says you think almost everyone is town when that clearly cannot be true. " Very smudgy. Yes. Skimming is a bad, bad thing. (I know you corrected it later, but that cracked me up considering it was the same post in which you accused _me_ of skimming.) Anyway. I can’t help feeling that the timing of your anti-me stance is rather opportune, considering that you’ve spent most of the game making next to _no_ cases on anyone (of course you were away so understandably your time was limited). But at long last, the one thing that gets you out of your medical office and posting your thoughts is my expressing concern about the veracity of your claim, and _then_ you go and [del]pseudo-OMGUS[/del] vote the heck out of me with, with all due respect, rather little evidence to go on except (just like Mahaloth) “tone” and the fact that I voted “staunchly” for **Svejk**. I’ll let y’all in on a little secret about my basic plan, though I’d’ve thought it wasn’t a secret: In case y’all couldn’t tell, I’ve been going after the three other **Inner Stickler** voters, because I am _95%_ certain that at least one of 'em is scum. **Guiri**'s clear, obviously; I said at the time I was getting a town vibe from him. Omitting myself for obvious reasons, that leaves **Svejk** and **Scathach**. Most people found **Svejk** ’s vote-switch the scummier of the two, as did I, which is why I maintained my vote on him yesterDay. But I’m beginning to feel differently. I also look at the **gnarlycharlie** voters. Who are the folks who voted for him, and is there any crossover? Why yes, there is: **Guiri** (confirmed town) and **Scathach** (status unknown). Indeed, **Scathach** was the first vote on both of 'em, if I remember correctly. I’m getting pinging up the wazoo (and it’s not as enjoyable as you’d think!). I think it’s _possible_ – not definite but _possible_ – that **Scathach** bussed **gnarlycharlie** to rid herself of the stench of the **Inner** vote. (Frankly it wouldn’t surprise me if there were more than one scum among the **gnarlycharlie** voters, but that’s for another day.) So why did she vote **Inner** and then **gnarly**? Well, I hate to go back to the murder mystery analogy, but for those of you who are fans: y’know how in serial killer novels, it’s quite often the case where the killer murders a bunch of other people for whom s/he has no real animus, but uses their deaths as a cover-up to obscure the motive for wanting the _one_ real victim dead? That’s what I think we have haer. I think **gnarlycharlie** was bussed to cover up for **Scathach** ’s vote on **Inner**. At least, I think it’s possible, and I’d like to take a few RL days to consider it. Now, I _could_ be going after **septimus** , whose role I’m simply not sold on 100% and who’s been tarring me (rather ineffectively, IMHO). Similarly, I \*could \*be going after **Mahaloth** , whose behavior this game has been erratic and he has yet to explain what his problem with me is except for the oh-so-nebulous “tone.” Heck, I could be going after **Silver Jan** who had the nerve to call me opinionated. (😃 just kidding, I actually find that a compliment since IRL I’m wuss city.) But no. I’m going after someone I genuinely feel could be scum, or possibly third party – either way, not Town. All the hairs on the back of my neck get all prickly around **Scathach** , and though my instincts have certainly been wrong, I’m gonna go with 'em a third time and see if that’s the charm. **vote Scathach** If you do lynch me toDay, guys, and I’m serious here: don’t worry about **septimus** even if he’s the one to lead me to the gallows. _Look on **Scathach** very carefully._ ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1028 "2011-12-21T03:18:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > As to why my PM has an oddity, I don’t know what to say. Perhaps **Trepa** changed the format to prevent handshaking. All I know is I copied my PM exactly. I don’t necessarily trust you, but after considering who the moderator of this game is, I do believe it possible that he gave the doc a PM title that was deliberately different than the rest of Town. He has done far worse as a mod, such as introducing scum masons. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > That’s a new one on me, counting an unvote even when there wasn’t one, that could have changed the outcome of D2. Well, in a single vote game it is clearly implied that you are unvoting when you vote for someone else. I think mods request the unvotes just to help with record keeping in those cases. > [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I think that the kill was blocked (rather than not carried out). This is inspired in part by **Trepa** ’s comment that “(…) the second victim of the night proved to not actually be a victim at all! That is to say, not dead. That is to say, alive. Yay, life!” ([here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14578939#post14578939)). But also, it’s because it would appear that whoever is behind the first two extra night-kills (probably the lurkers, \*\*gregorio \*\*and **orcenio** ) still had one lurker left to take out - **PCM** , who disappeared. Why decide not to use your killing power, all of a sudden, when there is still a good candidate? Perhaps it’s one of those vigs who only has limited powers, or a remorseful, but how likely is that, given again that this game is supposed to be simple? This would indicate that a kill was tried and failed, which in turn would suggest that someone (possibly **fubbles or septimus, since 1) they claimed, making themselves targets; 2) they both say they hid/self-protected) dodged a bullet. To me, it is evidence that there is at least one person in the game who has the power to avoid being killed.** > > Now \*\*fubbles \*\*announced during the night, all of a sudden, and very early, seeing as there had not even been the option of voting for him, and seeing as the problems that people had with him were quite mild (in my recollection at least, but fubbles agrees at least with regard to SilverJan’s accusations, as he calls them [weak straw-grasping](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14576086&postcount=925)). If he had not claimed, a more straightforward case could be made that a vig had tried to take out a self-protecting **septimus** , lending more credence to his claim that he is a town doctor. The timing of **fubbles** ’s claim (during the night, when vig, sk, and scum can still change their minds on who to take out) is odd to me. It would appear that \*\*fubbles \*\*put himself at risk if he really is a hider, \*and \*that he made things needlessly complicated for town. \*\*Fubbles \*\*gets called out on his timing by **[choie](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14576114&postcount=926)**, but does not [respond](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14576790&postcount=931). Later, he claims that '([post #947](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14578705&postcount=947)) he was ‘tired of defending [him]self’ - but I don’t feel that he had been doing a whole lot of defending at that point, which makes me think that his claim, prompted so easily, was in fact a way of throwing sand into the (admittedly poorly functioning) town-machine, confusing us and making things needlessly complicated. > > The late \*\*Guiri \*\*points out ([here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14578103#post14578103)) that ‘Between the abstain, the attack on Mahaloth, the handshake attempt, the smilies, the evasiveness, voting the doc, the self-vote with its strained logic, and the claim’, **fubbles** mostly seems to have been attracting day-time votes, when he should have been attracting night-time kills so that scum would waste a kill on him, eg by trying to look like a power role. If there’s any night-kill he would have been trying to attract, it would probably be a town-aligned vig. > > I find all of this highly suspicious and I don’t believe **fubbles** ’s claim. At the same time, I am leaning towards thinking that 1) **Septimus** \*is \*in fact the doctor; 2) that a vig tried to kill him and failed, which is why we had only one night-kill last Night. Problem here is, that \*\*Septimus \*\*had not announced he would be self-protecting during N3 like he had before N2; it seems like a big risk for a vig to take. So perhaps there is something else going on here that I am missing. At any rate, my suspicion of \*\*Fubbleskag \*\*stands, so without further ado: > > **vote fubbleskag** bleached. This is a decent case. I want to look at some of the other players, but I may join you here. > [@choie](#): > > Mmmm possibly. What bothers me about the whole Doctor claim thing is that everything I’ve read indicates that a doctor should _never_ claim unless his back is up against the wall. I looked at **septimus** ’s claim; it was made at 2:30ish PM, about 21-22 hours before Day 2 ended. Is that late enough to justify a claim that should almost never be made? septimus has explained himself in this regard, but I would like to point out that generally you want players to claim early enough so that the other players have time to evaluate it and other cases. Also, if you wait too late to claim, it is possible not enough players will have time to change their votes. > [@Scathach](#): > > Ok, so I think it’s quite likely that there was at least one scum bussing gnarlycharlie for town cred. > > Special Ed: > D1: Voted choie. Was voted by Svejk > D2. Voted fubbleskag. Was voted by gnarlycharlie > d3. Voted gnarlycharlie, was voted by Svejk > > His day 2 is a little suspicous. Fubbleskag is an easy person to vote because he’s one of the more controversial players what with voting himself, claiming hider and voting no lynch on the first day. I think it’s easy for scum to throw a vote away on him that’s hard to argue with and relatively safe. > Looking at post numbers, gnarlycharlie seems to have voted him almost as a throwaway vote. There was no likelihood of special ed being lynched. So gnarly could have voted him to distance themselves with relatively low risk. > > Hirka: > D1: absent > D2: Voted scathach > D3: Voted Svejk. Unvoted, moved to gnarlycharlie > > D2 or three has been pretty much following the prevailing bandwagons. There’s a fair bit of safe voting there. I also don’t like his reason for voting Svejk because Astral said he was going to - it really looks like trying to plant a vote which won’t be questioned. > > FluidDruid: > d1: Voted wevets. Was voted by choie and wevets. > d2: No vote (?) > D3: Voted fubbleskag. Unvoted,voted gnarlycharlie. > > Switches between fubbleskag, who as I stated previously is an easy lynch, and then to gnarlycharlie. > Now I’ve managed to convince myself that they’re all scum :smack: > > I’m going to **vote special ed** for the moment. I may switch after a reread but at the moment I’d be pretty happy lynching any of the three. I don’t expect you to put yourself on that list, but you and fluiddruid seem the most suspicious of the gnarly voters to me. Ed put charlie in a tie for the lynch lead and Hirka put him in the lead. This at a time when Town was down 6 players to scum’s 0. It is possible that scum would do something like that to gain Town cred (and Ed has played so many games, he might just do it for kicks), but I find it highly unlikely that they would do something like that when they could just sit back and let Town get lynched. One way it would make a bit more sense is if Svejk, Ed, and Hirka were all scum together and they decided it was better to lose charlie than Svejk. I find it more likely, though, that you were caught by surprise on a train you couldn’t get off of, or that fluiddruid was trying to gain some Town cred with a vote on a scum buddy. > [@septimus](#): > > And, I see on preview, Choie addressing Hirka, "I have to question your motivation for posting something that essentially says you think almost everyone is town when that clearly cannot be true. " Very smudgy. septimus corrected the mistake in saying Choie said this when it was Svejk. I have seen scum identified at least three times (once being me) because they made a list like the above and had trouble finding anyone scummy. So, while I have a strong Town lean on Hirka due to his gnarlycharlie vote, I don’t think what Svejk said is unreasonable. I know Hirka mentioned that my vote for Mahaloth looked scummy. I think someone else mentioned it also. Would anyone care to explain why it looked scummy. I understand that what often looks like a good case to one player does not to another, but I don’t understand what would be scummy about my vote. Mahaloth stays on my suspect list, and I think Svejk’s case against fubbleskag is reasonable, but I want to review Silver Jan and fluiddruid (two players that I haven’t taken particular notice of so far) before voting. > [@choie](#): > > [color=green] > > I make no comment on #1, since I don’t know your style well enough. But as far as #2 goes, do you not see that if you’d waited another Night, you might have at least saved _someone_ by doing your job? That early reveal basically cost us a doctor, since now all your efforts will be to remain alive yourself. That may be understandable in real life, but your Mafia Hippocratic Oath is to aim for a Town win, not self-survival. It’s not “First, do no harm,” it’s “First, do no harm to your Town team.” But that’s exactly what you did, IMHO. Maybe it wasn’t intentional, but I can’t fathom how you can’t see how you’ve castrated yourself. After writing the rest of my post, I preview and see this. If he thought he was getting lynched, then he would have been assuming that he would be able to do nothing Night 2. And once he is exposed, what is the quantitative difference between keeping himself alive or keeping someone else alive. I mean he can either be 100% sure of keeping one player alive (himself), or he can play a wifom game with the scum and possibly save another player while he still lives, but at the risk of getting killed himself, leaving Town with no protection at all. Why is one better than the other? Also, who accused me of not thinking anyone was scum? I had 6 players I was willing to let be lynched yesterDay. Some have gotten a bit more Town cred since then, but there are still several that I would not mind lynching (though no one seems to agree with me about Mahaloth). ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1029 "2011-12-21T04:18:33Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > septimus has explained himself in this regard, but I would like to point out that generally you want players to claim early enough so that the other players have time to evaluate it and other cases. Also, if you wait too late to claim, it is possible not enough players will have time to change their votes. True, but we’ve seen plenty of people switch their votes mightly quickly, especially when the doctor made his claim. The doctor is such an important role that there wasn’t even the slightest hesitation after he posted; in less then a couple of hours (possibly even less than an hour), three people unvoted him. I just don’t think he was in as much danger as you and he say he was. > [@](#): > > After writing the rest of my post, I preview and see this. If he thought he was getting lynched, then he would have been assuming that he would be able to do nothing Night 2. No, he said, as I quoted: > [@](#): > > Even if I could delay my Lynch without claiming, suspicions would continue to be a distraction and I’d probably have to claim the next Day anyway. So if he could delay his lynch till the next Day, he’d have had another Night free to do whatever he wanted. If he were that close to lynching, the scum team would probably not have wasted a night kill on him. And I’m of the mind we don’t have a Vig in the first place so I don’t think he was in danger there. Total aside here: How do you pronounce “vig” anyway? I suppose it should pronounced “vidge,” as in vigilante, but I can’t stop thinking of it as “vig,” as in “vigor” (or vigorish, to use a more apporpriate Mafia-esque term). > [@](#): > > And once he is exposed, what is the quantitative difference between keeping himself alive or keeping someone else alive. I mean he can either be 100% sure of keeping one player alive (himself), or he can play a wifom game with the scum and possibly save another player while he still lives, but at the risk of getting killed himself, leaving Town with no protection at all. Why is one better than the other? Well, we already have no protection at all. What protection is he now able to provide us? Somewhere between bupkis and nada. So yeah, once he’s exposed, you’re right–it is relatively pointless, except as far as IMHO 'nilla **Guiri** was a more productive and valuable team member (no offense), at least at the point when he was killed. But generally you’re right: _once he’s exposed_ it makes little difference, especially with a talented scumhunter like **Guiri** out of the picture. Which is why he should never have exposed himself. It’s true of flashers and it’s true of town docs. > [@](#): > > Also, who accused me of not thinking anyone was scum? I had 6 players I was willing to let be lynched yesterDay. Some have gotten a bit more Town cred since then, but there are still several that I would not mind lynching (though no one seems to agree with me about Mahaloth). I was getting you confused with **Hirka** but I do know that [GuiriEnEspana](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14576959&postcount=934) (may flights of angels sing him to his rest) thought you were being both wishy _and_ washy with your votes. (Actually I defended you 'cause ISTR you were basically the same way in **De’endee** , as Town.) ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1030 "2011-12-21T05:20:33Z")
@choie I’m confused by your comments on septimus. Assuming that he’s honest (as you must to judge him claiming and protecting himself) Do you really think he should have waited? Less than 24 hours left to: 1. Have his claim evaluated, and respond to that, if needed. 2. Have enough people around to unvote him. 3. Allow enough discussion to find another candidtate. (How often have we seen a late claim and then a scramble for a candidate?) It seems reasonable. In fact, I would be suspicious if he were around in that time frame and did not claim. I’d be interested to hear what others think. ```auto Also, why not protect himself? And, if he's honest, how is protecting himself wasting his protection. In a strictly numbers sense, any Night Killing of a Town player that he prevents saves the Town .5 mislynches. He needs to best judge who to protect. And if that's himself (since he obviously would trust himself), then that might be his best choice. basically, if he protects someone else and he does, not only do we not gain that .5 mislynch, we also have no more protections all game. Self-protecting isn't as unreasonable as you think, especially with no other confirmed or even semi-confirmed Town players present. ``` ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1031 "2011-12-21T05:37:51Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > @choie > > I’m confused by your comments on septimus. > > Assuming that he’s honest (as you must to judge him claiming and protecting himself) Bah! And fie! Stop right there, pardner. I’m _not_ assuming he’s honest, that’s my whole frakkin’ point. I’m doubting his claim. Because as far as I can tell, he’s done nothing to validate it. I mean for pete’s sakes, _I_ could claim I’m the doctor, and there’d be precisely as much evidence of it as there is of ol’ **septimus** ’s claim. Geeze, I really didn’t think I was being all that subtle. 😃 The reason I’m not voting for him is twofold: 1. because it’s also possible he’s doc but just made a mistake (IMHO) in claiming so crazy early. He’ll never admit it, although if he did he’ll actually gain some respect/Town Cred with me. Not that it matters since he allegedly thinks I’m scum. 2. more importantly, **Scathach** is my choice for today’s vote. Sure, no one else is gonna vote for her, and I’ll probably be lynched or killed, but I want this vote on the record if it’s the last (or at least second-to-last) thing I do before I swing or get the axe. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1032 "2011-12-21T06:33:52Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Bah! And fie! Stop right there, pardner. I’m _not_ assuming he’s honest, that’s my whole frakkin’ point. I’m doubting his claim. Because as far as I can tell, he’s done nothing to validate it. I mean for pete’s sakes, _I_ could claim I’m the doctor, and there’d be precisely as much evidence of it as there is of ol’ **septimus** ’s claim. > > Geeze, I really didn’t think I was being all that subtle. 😃 > > The reason I’m not voting for him is twofold: > > 1. because it’s also possible he’s doc but just made a mistake (IMHO) in claiming so crazy early. He’ll never admit it, although if he did he’ll actually gain some respect/Town Cred with me. Not that it matters since he allegedly thinks I’m scum. > > 2. more importantly, **Scathach** is my choice for today’s vote. Sure, no one else is gonna vote for her, and I’ll probably be lynched or killed, but I want this vote on the record if it’s the last (or at least second-to-last) thing I do before I swing or get the axe. Yes, I understand that you aren’t assuming he’s being honest. But your argument against him is that IF HE WERE HONEST, he wouldn’t act this way. When, in fact, if he were honest, he would act that way. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1033 "2011-12-21T08:52:52Z")
@\*\* choie\*\*, what would you do if you were the doc? ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1034 "2011-12-21T11:26:23Z")
> [@choie](#): > > So yeah, once he’s exposed, you’re right–it is relatively pointless, except as far as IMHO 'nilla **Guiri** was a more productive and valuable team member (no offense), at least at the point when he was killed. But generally you’re right: _once he’s exposed_ it makes little difference, especially with a talented scumhunter like **Guiri** out of the picture. Which is why he should never have exposed himself. It’s true of flashers and it’s true of town docs. Ok you’ve said this a few times now, so I’ll chime in to disagree. Stop telling power roles what do to. If you were the doc you might have protected Guiri, fine. But you’ll note septimus voted Guiri yesterday, so would then be unlikely to protect someone he thinks is scum. A self protecting doc is not useless, it’s a non nightkillable townie which is still pro town. Now if you think septimus is scum, and voted Guiri yesterday in order to make a convincing reason why he didn’t protect guiri last night, hence the night kill that’s one thing. But it doesn’t seem to be what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1035 "2011-12-21T12:06:28Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I don’t expect you to put yourself on that list, but you and fluiddruid seem the most suspicious of the gnarly voters to me. Ed put charlie in a tie for the lynch lead and Hirka put him in the lead. This at a time when Town was down 6 players to scum’s 0. It is possible that scum would do something like that to gain Town cred (and Ed has played so many games, he might just do it for kicks), but I find it highly unlikely that they would do something like that when they could just sit back and let Town get lynched. One way it would make a bit more sense is if Svejk, Ed, and Hirka were all scum together and they decided it was better to lose charlie than Svejk. > > I find it more likely, though, that you were caught by surprise on a train you couldn’t get off of, or that fluiddruid was trying to gain some Town cred with a vote on a scum buddy. The reason I didn’t vote fluiddruid was WIFOM. I was kind of thinking it was unlikely she’d pile on after gnarlycharlie was already in the lead because it looks more like scum bussing. Whereas the other two could easily have been bussing for massive cred since they swung the vote. (Especially since gnarlycharlie was a goon and had no powers). But I freely admit that there’s arguments to be made either way. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1036 "2011-12-21T14:48:04Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @\*\* choie\*\*, what would you do if you were the doc? I’d’ve behaved in a Townie fashion, kept under the radar for the first few Days so I didn’t garner so much suspicion in order to even get into the place **septimus** did. I’d’ve done my best to make a good enough case to keep myself alive another Night, and spent at least _one_ more Night protecting someone else. At least, that’s how I hope I’d act. But in fairness you guys are probably right. It is rather presumptuous of me to tell town power roles (or really anyone else) how to behave. They’ve got a lot to juggle, not just their own votes, but also to make sure they don’t garner suspicion themselves, and of course then there’s the decision on how to enact one’s, uh, actions (assuming that’s what their power is). Maybe I’d’ve done the same in his shoes. I do agree that if there’s no other choice but to protect myself, if I’d made myself vulnerable to a Night Kill, I’d probably do so. In any case I’m not trying to get **septimus** lynched–that way lies madness–but I’m just pissed off not only with his decision to early claim, but with his having behaved in a manner that resulted in the early claim in the first place. (But I suppose hindsight’s 20/20.) I also don’t think he’s been hugely useful as a regular voter since he claimed–as far as I can tell he just hasn’t said all that much and hasn’t made all that many cases since he outted himself. That bugs too. One thing I find peculiar, not in his behavior but ours: once he claimed, I don’t think anyone has asked **septimus** whom he protected on Night 1 (at least I can’t find it in Day 2 or the beginning of Day 3). If I’m wrong, which is certainly possible, please let me know. I asked yesterday but I don’t think he’s been around to respond yet. In any event maybe it doesn’t matter. I just think it might be edifying to know whom the one semi-confirmed Town person chose to protect. In looking Day 3 over, I also see that it’s not as if I’m the only person who wasn’t fond of **septimus** ’s reveal, or his post-reveal behavior. **special ed** [harped](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14546273&postcount=543) [on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14555378&postcount=648) [him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14560069&postcount=696) too. So at least I’m not the only person who’s all :dubious: about the doc’s choices. Anyway I feel like a few scum sharks are scenting blood in the water, so I’d better stop swimming and head back to shore. Probably too late, I can feel the teeth dragging against my leg even as I sp– ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1037 "2011-12-21T15:36:27Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I’d’ve behaved in a Townie fashion, kept under the radar for the first few Days so I didn’t garner so much suspicion in order to even get into the place **septimus** did. I’d’ve done my best to make a good enough case to keep myself alive another Night, and spent at least _one_ more Night protecting someone else. At least, that’s how I hope I’d act. But wasn’t he headed for the gallows with less than 24 hours left in the Day? Are you saying you wouldn’t have claimed, if you were the Doc? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1038 "2011-12-21T15:44:11Z")
> [@choie](#): > > In looking Day 3 over, I also see that it’s not as if I’m the only person who wasn’t fond of **septimus** ’s reveal, or his post-reveal behavior. **special ed** [harped](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14546273&postcount=543) [on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14555378&postcount=648) [him](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14560069&postcount=696) too. So at least I’m not the only person who’s all :dubious: about the doc’s choices. Nice attempt at distraction. I wouldn’t call what I did in those 3 posts ‘harping’ I would call the first questioning the likelihood of a doctor, without trying to make septimus’ reasonable claim and self-protection seem Scummy. I would call the second laying out the facts to consider when evaluating him (in response to you initially calling him out for seemingly not being targeted by the Vig) And the third is calling him out on a weak ass approach to the game without having anything to do with his claim. So, unlike what you’ve said, my posts have nothing to do with the Doc’s choices, other than a weak approach to scum hunting by the player, which has nothing to do with use of the power. So don’t try to lump me in with you on this one. I believe you are alone in trying to paint him in a Scummy light because of the timing of his claim and his choice to self-protect. Anyone is willing to chime in and point to where people actually share choie’s view. At this point, you’re starting to look like a Scum who is frustrated that they cannot eliminate the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1039 "2011-12-21T15:55:46Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > But wasn’t he headed for the gallows with less than 24 hours left in the Day? > > Are you saying you wouldn’t have claimed, if you were the Doc? Not at _that_ point, no. I admit that his personal circumstances might’ve made it impossible for him to know if he’d have been able to be around later in the Day. But speaking strictly for myself, I’d’ve have waited until as late as possible, like, 8 hours pre-Dusk, and spent the rest of the time doing my damndest to make a case for my own survival. I don’t think **septimus** was making a very good case for himself prior to his claim, which is why things got to the point where he felt he had no choice. But again, in fairness, as he says himself, he’s not confident in his abilities to woo people over with words, so I guess that’s why he needed to claim earlier. (That and his schedule.) Certainly if your back’s against the wall, and you’re a power role that’s useful to Town and you know you can still do more good things for Town, then it’s your responsibility to claim. That’s how I’ll play it myself, should such an honorable role be bestowed upon me. (Mind you, I think **fubbleskag** ’s claim timing was way worse than **septimus** – during the Night when we were in no way close to a vote, for heaven’s sake! – but we have less to lose if he bites it.) It’s quite likely that I’m wrong about strategy; I’ve spent a lot of time looking up games and role responsibilities and so on, not just here but on various wikis (epicmafia, mafiascum, etc.), and that’s where I’ve developed my feelings about waiting until the absolute last reasonable moment before claiming Doc. But these are all theories and objective discussions; it’s probably quite different when you’re in-game standing on a pyre _a la_ Joan of Arc and you feel the flames licking at your flesh. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526/1040 "2011-12-21T16:11:58Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > At this point, you’re starting to look like a Scum who is frustrated that they cannot eliminate the doctor. Oh man, I’m _wishing_ I were scum, because their jobs are pretty easy right now. Why would the scum team be frustrated? They don’t _have_ to eliminate the doctor; he’s already neutralized his power himself, and basically turned himself into an unkillable vanilla. And so what if there’s one person who’s unkillable? Unless I’m mistaken, scum don’t need to kill all of us, right? They can take their leisurely time and cap everyone _but_ the doctor, or at least a majority, until we have no chance of winning. And the doc’s not gonna do anything to stop 'em, because he’s now understandably worried about his life. (_Especially_ since we seem to have a serial killer as well!) And don’t kid a kidder, bub. What you were doing was non-accusatory accusing. You were doubting the existence of a doctor; there is no significant difference between saying “I doubt there’s a doctor” and my saying “I doubt **septimus** is a doctor because we have no proof that there _is_ a doctor, mainly because as far as we can tell, no one’s ever so much as picked up a tongue depressor in this game.” And your saying that he’s making some weak-ass choices is exactly what I’m doing too. So nice attempt to distance yourself from _my_ POV, but like it or not, your POV _has_ suddenly changed, probably because you want to hang with the cool kids after school rather than with the one idjit who dares to suggest exactly the same thing you were suggesting but apparently too cautious or scummy to state flatly. This is all gonna be amusing toward the EOD, that’s for sure. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-thrill-of-the-chase-newbie-friendly/603526.md?page=53)