# Magdalene Sisters **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 26, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931 "2017-10-26T23:47:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/1 "2017-10-26T23:47:15Z")
I’ve heard conflicting stories on the Magdalene institution in Melbourne. The official line is that it was horrible and abusive. But the older working class man from the slums across the river, that I used to work with, said that the girls used to swim across the river at night to hook up with their boyfriends, which suggests slightly less strict supervision. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/2 "2017-10-26T23:51:43Z")
Without any specific knowledge, swimming across the river sounds like something you do to escape a restrictive environment (a.k.a. sneaking out). It’s not as though part of the facilities’ activities was “swimming across the river to visit boyfriends.” I don’t see any conflict between a place being horrible and abusive, and the people living there doing whatever they could to escape those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/3 "2017-10-27T00:29:15Z")
Having swum across the river, did they then swim back before morning, or did they stay on the other side and run off with said boyfriends? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/4 "2017-10-27T18:56:33Z")
[reference to column in question](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2590/did-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-imprison-wayward-girls) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/5 "2017-10-27T21:02:15Z")
1. Was this something he personally witnessed, or something he was told? 2. Is there a reason you would believe his tale over all the evidence to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/6 "2017-10-28T00:28:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Was this something he personally witnessed, or something he was told? > 2. Is there a reason you would believe his tale over all the evidence to the contrary? “All the evidence to the contrary?”, Which specific evidence are you referring to? There is anecdotal evidence about the conditions in Melbourne, from the people who were there at the time. It’s not that long ago. It’s clear that in Melbourne, the young women were not in “prison”. There are the old barracks. There are the old workshops. There are no glass-topped walls. I just thought it was an interesting addition to the story. As noted in the original article, not a monolithic organization, not a pleasant life. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/7 "2017-10-30T13:28:53Z")
The NYT has a new story, “The Lost Children of Tuam,” on some of these issues: [The Lost Children of Tuam - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/world/europe/tuam-ireland-babies-children.html?smid=pl-share) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/8 "2017-10-30T21:01:58Z")
I’m surprised Cecil didn’t mention the Irish government’s official McAleese Report, which investigated the practices of the Magdalene Laundries. [Are factual inaccuracies in movies justified by role in highlighting issues? – The Irish Times](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/are-factual-inaccuracies-in-movies-justified-by-role-in-highlighting-issues-1.1250910) The official report indicated that the laundries were miserable, awful places in many respects. The Church SHOULD be ashamed. But significantly… 1. The widespread sexual abuses shown in the movie? Not true. 2. The physical torture and abuse shown in the movie? Nope, apparently that wasn’t true either. 3. The constantly parade of naked inmates? Nope, that wasn’t true either. 4. Girls regularly going into labor at the washing machines? Nope 5. Girls being held prisoner for decades? Nope- most inmates stayed about 7 months. Peter Mullan is an angry communist atheist and his movie seems to have grossly exaggerated all kinds of things. The worst part is, the truth was bad enough! By going so far over the top, he opened his entire thesis to ridicule and dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/9 "2017-10-30T22:17:58Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Without any specific knowledge, swimming across the river sounds like something you do to escape a restrictive environment (a.k.a. sneaking out). It’s not as though part of the facilities’ activities was “swimming across the river to visit boyfriends.” I don’t see any conflict between a place being horrible and abusive, and the people living there doing whatever they could to escape those conditions. From things I’ve read British and American colleges for women had restrictive behaviour rules and curfews, right up to the 1950s. Even parents had the same controlling rules ( as with the colleges for reasons both of protecting young women, and enforcing deportment ) up to the 1980s. \* Neither of these, parents or colleges _in loco parentis_, were necessarily being cruel or abusive — even if they were in other aspects in some cases. - Some parents even now, because of the patriarchal power structure and its traditions, might not like their 16-yr-old daughters swimming out at midnight to hook up with men. Times change slowly. Not to say the institutions run in Ireland and elsewhere weren’t pretty bad \*\*, just that it’s never been the case that rebelling against the rules _makes_ rules wrong, nor the fact of rebellion _demonstrates_ oppression. \*\* And again, if I swam out, I wouldn’t be planning on returning. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/10 "2017-11-07T00:08:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The NYT has a new story, “The Lost Children of Tuam,” on some of these issues: [The Lost Children of Tuam - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/world/europe/tuam-ireland-babies-children.html?smid=pl-share) This is by far the best treatment of that sad and terrible story that has yet been written. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/11 "2017-11-07T03:11:11Z")
There is some criticism of the McaLeese report into the Magdalene Laundries that suggests it was based on evidence submitted by institutions and state inspectors rather than the personal accounts of the girls who suffered under the regime. The report seems to have been a response to questions from the UN about human rights rather than any film. [http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/MagdalenRpt2013](http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/MagdalenRpt2013) > **[McAleese report leaves questions unanswered](https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-20259188.html)** > > Given the chance to highlight victims’ stories, the McAleese committee sided with powerful institutions once more, writes Simon McGarr The Justice for Magdalenes group have recorded many interviews with former inmates of the laundries about the wretched lives they had and the abuse they suffered. > **[Justice for Magdalenes Research](http://jfmresearch.com/)** > > A resource for people affected by and interested in Ireland's Magdalene institutions The influence of the Catholic Church was built into the constitution of the Irish Republic and many of the health and social welfare functions of the state were done by religious orders. This persisted long after many other countries had developed state-run social and health services. The injustices that arose from this policy are still a live issue today and the subject of campaigns for justice and compensation. Ireland was a very poor country indeed up until it joined the EU in 1973 and its economy began to develop. It has come a long way and the cultural conservatism that entrenched the Catholic church deep within the state and allowed these scandals to go unreported is becoming a thing of the past. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magdalene-sisters/799931/12 "2017-11-07T07:01:30Z")
The McAleese report is a massive, massive whitewash. **filmstar-en** is correct that it had no regard to the women’s own accounts of their abuse during their incarceration there. There’s a very simple fact that proves this. When Ireland introduced a redress scheme for children who had been victims of abuse in residential institutions, among the institutions covered by the scheme were “teenage units” of the institutions that ran the laundries, like An Grianán at High Park, the site at which 133 bodies were found in unmarked graves in the 1990s. There is _no_ dispute that (a) these girls were made work in the laundries or (b) they were abused while they were there: their redress was linked to the severity of the abuse. So, yes, the physical torture and abuse shown in the movie is absolutely true and indeed, a matter of public record. Incidentally, the Irish government itself has recently began backtracking on McAleese: it’s now claiming that there is [no evidence of State liability](http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/state-accused-of-misleading-united-nations-on-magdalene-liability-447405.html) in the running of the laundries, despite McAleese making clear findings that there was. (I really recommend that particular journalist’s writings on the subject - he’s the only one in Ireland that still seems interested.) And no, they weren’t all jails in the sense of women being _physically unable_ to get out. But where would they go?