# Magic the Gathering: somebody please explain its appeal **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875 "2012-07-11T06:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/21 "2012-07-11T20:20:27Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Also, I always found breaking Magic way more fun than playing it. I’ve seen a few gimmick decks that revolve around infinitely recursive subgames and whatnot, 98% of them aren’t tournament legal and your friends will hate you if you play them more than once, but they make such great stories. It wouldn’t be appropriate here, but I’d enjoy reading a thread that explained a few gimmick decks, especially if it included great game stories. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/22 "2012-07-11T20:22:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Notably, it was possible to win before the opponent ever had a turn via the infamous mountain/black lotus/channelling/fireball combo :p. I barely played Magic (only ever got like 3 packs), but even I randomly picked up a first turn kill combo. Dark Ritual x3, Nether Shadow, Hatred. Of course, since I got these cards randomly, I only had 1 each of NS and Hatred, so it was extremely unlikely I would be able to win on the first turn. (come to think of it, even if I had 4 each it would still be vanishingly unlikely) ---
**Author:** ![Bilbo1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bilbo1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bilbo1967)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/23 "2012-07-11T20:27:08Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Also, I always found breaking Magic way more fun than playing it. I’ve seen a few gimmick decks that revolve around infinitely recursive subgames and whatnot, 98% of them aren’t tournament legal and your friends will hate you if you play them more than once, but they make such great stories. Hell yeah. I’ve been playing for many years now (but not seriously bought any cards since about Ice Age). My brother-in-law has always been the guy that plays that deck. The one where most of his turns take 20 minutes; “So, I play this, which allows me to untap this, which means I can tap it to activate this, which allows me to draw a card, which I play to untap this, which regenerates this card from my graveyard, whose ability means I can gain this much life, which means I can sacrifice life to activate that card’s ability…”, and so on and so on until we all wander off or take his word for it that he’s just gained infinite life or caused all of us infinite damage or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/24 "2012-07-11T21:06:34Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There is in fact a card that says “target opponent loses the game” - however, it requires considerable resources to put it into play and activate it. At least two that I can think of: [Phage the Untouchable](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106427) and [Door to Nothingness.](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=288992) ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/25 "2012-07-11T23:25:19Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Games with cards almost always include some cards that supersede the basic rules of the game. Ever played Monopoly? The rules are that you go around the board by rolling dice. But what if you draw a card that says to go directly to Jail? Oh noes! The cards are breaking the rules. There ARE NO RULES! Dogs and cats sleeping together. Mass hysteria. If there were a Monopoly card that said “You win the game”, that would make Monopoly a pretty stupid game. But there isn’t one. > > Nor is there a Magic card that says that. > > If you have to make up parts of a game that don’t exist in order to criticize them, it’s probably not a very strong criticism. Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that a player can examine all the Chance and Community Chest cards, and all the property deed cards, before the start of the game. Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that in subsequent games, no card will appear that wasn’t a part of previous games. So surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that the cards of Monopoly do NOT supersede the “basic rules of the game,” since the rules of the game say that if you draw a Chance or Community Chest card, you must do what the card says. In any case, I apologize for criticizing your favowite game. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/26 "2012-07-11T23:33:09Z")
Surely you realize that this is not an open source game. If an opponent tries to play a card written with a Sharpie on normal paper, that is outside the basic rules of the game. Surely you realize that the basic rules of the game include the rule that the text on a card is legit. Surely you realize that the text written on the cards _is_ part of the rules of the game. Would you rather the cards had no text, and instead you had to refer to a rulebook several volumes large to see what the rules say the card you want to play does? If you want to play chess or Monopoly, you can play chess or Monopoly. If you don’t like the fact that a card you’ve never seen, but which has its rules printed on it for ease of gaming, can be played, you don’t have to play Magic. Nobody’s making you. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/27 "2012-07-12T00:02:23Z")
Also, you do realize that there HAVE been times in the past where rules have been made specifically to supersede a card, right? For instance, the fiasco mentioned above with the “target player loses the game” card was amended in the rulebook. In addition, any ban on a card is also a rule that supersedes a card, if you tried to play said card you wouldn’t be able to. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/28 "2012-07-12T01:06:24Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > In any case, I apologize for criticizing your favowite game. I predicted this as the result/point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/29 "2012-07-12T01:40:57Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Also, you do realize that there HAVE been times in the past where rules have been made specifically to supersede a card, right? For instance, the fiasco mentioned above with the “target player loses the game” card was amended in the rulebook. Nothing of that sort ever happened with the released game. The story, possibly apocryphal, involves an early playtest card. The closest I can think of to a case where the rules have been made to specifically supersede a card involved the card Abeyance, which was printed way back in approximately 1996. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/30 "2012-07-12T01:47:51Z")
Yeah, it was pretty obvious from the start that the OP isn’t interested in _actually_ understanding the game nor having anyone explain its appeal. Perhaps it would have been more honest of the OP to have started this in the BBQ Pit? My favorite thing about Magic: The Gathering is that it’s possible to create a situation where four [Indestructibility](http://magiccards.info/m10/en/17.html)s are enchanting each other, forming a [Tranquility](http://magiccards.info/al/en/129.html)-proof, indestructible ring of enchantments. ([Simic Guildmage](http://magiccards.info/di/en/148.html) is the key.) With [Fountain Watch](http://magiccards.info/mm/en/19.html) in play, you don’t even have to worry about [Erase](http://magiccards.info/m13/en/13.html). Your little ourorboros of indestructible enchantments will last until the [Apocalypse](http://magiccards.info/tp/en/162.html). You’ll note that this accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I just love that the rules are robust enough (and the card effects creative enough) that this is possible to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/31 "2012-07-12T01:49:15Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that a player can examine all the Chance and Community Chest cards, and all the property deed cards, before the start of the game. [http://gatherer.wizards.com](http://gatherer.wizards.com) you too can examine all the Magic cards before the start of the game. > [@](#): > > Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that in subsequent games, no card will appear that wasn’t a part of previous games. Have you ever heard of a game expansion? Magic is hardly the only game that changes when new expansions are added. > [@](#): > > So surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that the cards of Monopoly do NOT supersede the “basic rules of the game,” since the rules of the game say that if you draw a Chance or Community Chest card, you must do what the card says. and the rules of Magic say when you play a Magic card, you must do what the card says. Look, if it’s not your bag, don’t play it. But you’re describing 1000 Blank White cards (which yes, is a game, and yes is fun), not Magic. Are there 1st turn kills in Magic? Yes, but as far as I know, not in any format other than the “eternal” formats that allow all cards ever made, where people expect that. And where they do exist, there are also cards that foil the 1st turn kills, to the point that the 1st turn kills are rarely worth playing. Do new cards keep being printed? yes, that’s part of the fun. Do cards exist that say “you win” or “your opponent loses,” yes, but they require set up and can be easily disrupted by other cards. Do the cards “break the rules”? Yes, but not really. The text on the cards, taken as a whole, ARE the rules. So what? To answer your initial question: what’s the appeal? It’s an ever-changing, exciting, well-balanced, varied game. It can be cutthroat or casual, serious or silly. I can flex my creative muscles while not playing by thinking up combos and decks. It rewards strategy and tactics, but has enough luck that it’s never a foregone conclusion. That’s the appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/32 "2012-07-12T01:49:20Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Yeah, it was pretty obvious from the start that the OP isn’t interested in _actually_ understanding the game nor having anyone explain its appeal. Perhaps it would have been more honest of the OP to have started this in the BBQ Pit? > > My favorite thing about Magic: The Gathering is that it’s possible to create a situation where four [Indestructibility](http://magiccards.info/m10/en/17.html)s are enchanting each other, forming a [Tranquility](http://magiccards.info/al/en/129.html)-proof, indestructible ring of enchantments. ([Simic Guildmage](http://magiccards.info/di/en/148.html) is the key.) With [Fountain Watch](http://magiccards.info/mm/en/19.html) in play, you don’t even have to worry about [Erase](http://magiccards.info/m13/en/13.html). Your little ourorboros of indestructible enchantments will last until the [Apocalypse](http://magiccards.info/tp/en/162.html). > > You’ll note that this accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I just love that the rules are robust enough (and the card effects creative enough) that this is possible to achieve. Your Aura Gnarlids will be pleased. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/33 "2012-07-12T01:59:22Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I mean, if you’re playing in the local university basement with a bunch of laypeople sure, but pretty much my only outlet for play was against said state champ and at tournaments. I admit my situation was a bit unusual, but I basically had no chance unless I ubergamed. It was more fun back for the two months I played in middle school when I just played with my friend where we both had barely modified started decks. So you go to the tournaments where each person gets a starter deck and a couple of packs and has to build a deck from those and play with that for the whole tourney. These were usually held at the local shops when expansions were released. The best way my little bunch of laypeople had of shutting down the hard core players was playing group battles. Tournament decks are fine for one on one play, but tend to fall apart when you’ve got a pile of six players going. And boy were those fun. Complete chaos. Decks you’d never imagine taking to a tournament. I had a deck based around walls and the spell Pyroclasm. I’d take out weenie creatures left and right and hide behind my defensive line. It was a complete dick deck. I had an old Ice Age deck based around the Arctic Fox card. Unblockable if opposing players had snow covered lands. Spend the whole game dinking people to death. A green deck based around the Lhurgoyf. Power and toughness based around creatures in all graveyards. Get four or more graveyards going and that beastie was just awesome. I don’t care if I’m showing my nerd age here. Those games were fun. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/34 "2012-07-12T02:02:26Z")
By the way, the rules and the card texts are living documents. There are updates once a season or so. Most of them are small tweaks to make the new cards work, or to make old cards work under new rules. Saying that the “cards break the rules” or “the rules override the cards” is kind of simplistic. It’s a complex system, where all the pieces work together. There’s not really a distinction in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/35 "2012-07-12T02:31:09Z")
It’s fun? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/36 "2012-07-12T02:39:17Z")
I only play from time to time (I picked it up in the late 90s, say 1997, and dropped in around 2000 due to lack of playtime and money) and these days its mostly either the old Microprose game or one of the games available on the PS3. I just can’t get myself to pay money for virtual cards (it’d help a bit if they’d launch a Mac client.) It didn’t help that my favorite expansions (the Mirage block) went out of Type 2 and it seemed like everyone was playing the exact same burn deck through the Urza block. What I’ve found is that I’m still stuck in the old rules to some degree, where they’ve given names to abilities that used to be described on the card (examples include vigilance, shroud, defender, deathtouch, and reach.) Also, I still think in terms of the old turn structure and stack timing rules, which gets me into trouble at times. Hell, I apparently missed the changes in formats, since I don’t think they use the Type II name anymore. I know there’s a number of Dopers who play online, but I don’t think there’s even been an actual list generated. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/37 "2012-07-12T03:21:58Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that a player can examine all the Chance and Community Chest cards, and all the property deed cards, before the start of the game. Surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that in subsequent games, no card will appear that wasn’t a part of previous games. So surely you realize–OK, maybe you don’t–that the cards of Monopoly do NOT supersede the “basic rules of the game,” since the rules of the game say that if you draw a Chance or Community Chest card, you must do what the card says. > > In any case, I apologize for criticizing your favowite game. How about making an honest OP next time? ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/38 "2012-07-12T04:17:11Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Yeah, it was pretty obvious from the start that the OP isn’t interested in _actually_ understanding the game nor having anyone explain its appeal. Perhaps it would have been more honest of the OP to have started this in the BBQ Pit? I felt sure that my question and my motivations would be misconstrued, and that some loyal fanboys would leap to the “defense” of their favorite game, as if I was attacking it. It is interesting to note that no one has actually answered the question–what is the appeal of this game? Is it its chaotic nature? The constant need to upgrade and improve one’s deck(s)? The open-ended nature of the game? The fact that the rules are in a constant state of flux? I doubt, for example, that it has all that much appeal as a strategy game, because it’s impossible to form a strategy that’ll be any use say, two months from now. But possibly the constant need to adapt makes it stimulating for some people rather than frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/39 "2012-07-12T04:20:49Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > How about making an honest OP next time? No need to question my motives just because I questioned the appeal of your favorite game. That wasn’t by any kind of extension an attack on you or others who play it; therefore there is no need for you to “retaliate.” It’s obvious that the game has great appeal for _some_ people, because Wizards continues to sell cards. If at least some people didn’t find the game compelling, they wouldn’t expend the large sums necessary to play it. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875/40 "2012-07-12T04:23:48Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > No need to question my motives just because I questioned the appeal of your favorite game. This guy’s good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-somebody-please-explain-its-appeal/627875.md?page=3)