# Magic: The Gathering theoretical format **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 22, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310 "2002-10-22T00:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/41 "2002-10-24T15:25:07Z")
How is it even possible to have 500 Force of Wills in a deck? Isn’t there a 4-card max duplicates rule? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/42 "2002-10-24T15:33:26Z")
Why not restrict it to Type-2… then there’s no Strip Mines or Mishras or Loti to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/43 "2002-10-24T15:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Oh, and **Max** , two Pendlehavens are generally considered a bad thing 😉 [sub]c.f. the definition of “Legendary”[/sub] > \*\* not if you never plan on getting both into play. You need 2 to prevent one being blackmailed… I’m thinking the way to beat the blackmail deck is something like Max’s Roar deck… So far the closest I can get is to get you down to 8 before I die: Hollow Trees, Hollow Trees, Beast attack. Unfortunately, the trees are just too slow. you’ve got to have something you can cast with 1 mana source that has flashback or a similar ability, that does more than 3 damage per turn… hmm… ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/44 "2002-10-24T17:18:56Z")
You’re right **gonzoron** , I hadn’t thought it through I guess. Congratulations on coming up with a deck that will beat Counter-Strip though. Hollow Trees, Hollow Trees, Beast Attack will beat it 100% of the time. It’ll lose to lots of other stuff, but it beats a deck which was formerly a draw-only match for pretty much everything in the format. Hmm, what could beat blackmail more than 50/50? I’m stumped so far too. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/45 "2002-10-24T17:37:30Z")
Actually, I just came up with a deck that will beat, or draw with Swamp, Blackmail, Rack. It won’t lose to Blackmail. It’ll lose to virtually EVERYTHING else though. Nether Spirit X 3. Two scenarios. Blackmail player plays first. Plays Swamp, Blackmail takes a Nether Spirit. Done. Nether Spirit returns to play from the graveyard. Done. Play Rack. Done Rack does one damage. Nether Spirit attacks for two. Nether Spirit wins the race. Next game, Blackmail goes first, lays Swamp, plays Rack. Done. Nether Spirit player sits there. Done. Draw. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/46 "2002-10-24T17:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Well, it doesn’t quite meet your criteria Justin. Your actual criteria was The deck WILL _lose_ to Lotus, Dark Ritual, Juzam fully half the time. It will draw with counter-strip 100% of the time(but then again almost everything will draw with counter-strip except 3-Mishras) Now you have to decide if that’s a big enough concern to not run it or if you think Lotus, DR, Juzam isn’t viable enough to cause you problems. Standard metagame analysis here. > > Enjoy, > Steven(wonder if I should use my old usenet sig here, oh what the heck) > King of Casual Play > The One and Only Defender of Cards That Blow \*\* I know you! You’re Steven Me… well, I won’t say your last name here, but we’ve actually had some interesting discussions on usenet and, I believe, the old Dojo forums before. I think we debated Greater Good to death a few years back. Heh. Anyway, you’re correct. It does lose to Lotus-Ritual-fattie, but only when going second, reducing the matchup to a coin flip. However, LRF loses to an awful lot of other decks, so it’s really only a foil to Blackmail. I haven’t been able to come up with something that regularly beats it AND other decks, so I’ll stick with it as “best deck.” – Justin ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/47 "2002-10-24T20:40:24Z")
Well, Triple Nether Spirit technically beats it, unless the Blackmail player knows not to try to play the Blackmail, then it can force a draw. Since they wouldn’t know that they’re up against 3NS, then Blackmail would be expected to lose the first game in any match, then force draws in games two and three. Still 0/1/2 is considered a match loss IIRC. Triple Spirit falls into even a narrower category than First Turn Fattie(Lotus, Ritual, Juzam, or Lotus, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mahamoti, or Lotus, Forest, Argothian Wurm, tons of combinations that would beat non-Counter decks if they went first) Yep, that’s me 😉 Still lurk on the newsgroups, don’t post much. Life’s been too hectic since I got out of college to keep up with M:tG as much as I’d like to or as much as I used to. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/48 "2002-10-24T22:02:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > **Well, Triple Nether Spirit technically beats it, unless the Blackmail player knows not to try to play the Blackmail, then it can force a draw** Nope, the OP sepcified “Decklists are known to both players.” Triple spirit will always draw with blackmail. Man, I’ve been wracking my brain for a way to beat the blackmail deck that works no matter who goes first… I don’t think it’s out there… ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/49 "2002-10-25T14:37:03Z")
Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Serra Avatar ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/50 "2002-10-25T14:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Serra Avatar \*\* Nice, but only beats blackmail if you go first. draws with FOW decks. (they blackmail or counter your lotus or S&T and you’re toast) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/51 "2002-10-25T15:21:42Z")
This is true. But reverse it. (almost) everything draws against counter. (almost) everything loses against blackmail if blackmail goes first. So this, in itself, proves nothing. That it can beat blackmail going first puts it up in the top decks to begin with. So the question is: how does it fare against everything else out there? Can it beat all the other decks? Even more specifically, can it beat all the other decks that can also beat blackmail? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/52 "2002-10-25T15:57:58Z")
Fast Fat has always beaten Blackmail. Fast fat also beats a lot of other stuff. It is a strong archetype in the environment. I’m not sure Lotus, Show and Tell, Serra Avatar is the ideal fast-fat combination, but it’s a strong one. Just thought about it, 3 X Nether Spirit will always draw with Lotus, Show and Tell, Serra Avatar too. Neat, a semi-foil for two strong decks. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310/53 "2002-11-11T20:20:53Z")
I know this is an old thread, but I put enough effort into thinking it up that I’m going to post it anyway. A few more strong decks: Taiga and two Kurd Apes. Certainly not the best, since it’s possible to get bigger creatures, and it’s vulnerable to Strip Mine, but it’s resistant to counter decks. Worth considering as an opponent. Taiga, Kurd Ape, and Rack: Very strong, beats most Force of Will decks and the Foil-Nether Spirit combo, but I can do better. Various combinations with Thallids: Take a while to get up to speed, but can get very powerful eventually. Specifically, my best choice: Pendelhaven, Thallid, Rack. Against any fatty deck mentioned thus far other than Show-and-Tell, it races better. I don’t think that there’s any fatty big enough to race it, without using Show and Tell. Against the Rootwalla deck, whichever goes first pummels the other, due to the legendary land. Against the blackmail deck, I’m not sure: If blackmail goes first, of course, I lose my land, and am helpless against the Rack, but if I go first, I can play my Thallid, and I think I might be able to just barely race it. I think that it unconditionally beats all other decks mentioned thus far. It looks like the Blackmail deck is still better overall, since it can unconditionally beat the Rootwalla deck, and can beat the Show-and-Tell deck if it goes first. But Pendelhaven-Rack-Thallid is still a strong contender. By the way, the Phyrexian Grinder deck is powerful once it gets rolling, but it takes a long time to get up to speed: You don’t do any damage until your fourth turn, at the earliest. Indentured Djinn or other flying fatties race it easily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-the-gathering-theoretical-format/133310.md?page=2)