# Magic tricks, mystification and morality (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015 "2009-03-02T15:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/41 "2009-03-03T17:42:49Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I love being fooled by magicians and think misdirection, timing, dexterity (especially close-up card magic) and even props on a stage are wonderful fun. > But I am really disappointed in the above, because Criss Angel clearly implied he was doing ‘street magic’ in front of genuine passers-by and with no preparation / props. Their business is deceit, and if a lie will help make the trick more believable, they certainly will use whatever means necessary. It’s part of the trade. If a magician can get away with a simple lie by saying that the bystanders are not in on it, and that helps make the trick more believable, then they will use it; it isn’t just Criss doing this. David Copperfield’s live audience was in on it when he made the Statue of Liberty disappear. David Blaine has shills too, and he tends to use a bit more editing with his so-called street magic, such as variations of his levitation, or is guessing a card that someone is thinking of. I personally enjoyed the masked magicians series, but do have mixed feelings about it. There is more to magic than just knowing the trick. Each has to have a bit of showmanship, and how well they perform it and the art that goes into it still makes many of the better magicians exciting to watch. I also think it helps improve ones critical thinking skills even if one has to be shown how certain tricks are illusions are done. It will eventually get them to thinking other natural ways of how other tricks can be done too. It used to be a little bit of a letdown when I found out how simple some of the tricks were when I was a kid, but as I grew older, “how it was done” became my quest and that is the fun part now. Glee, have you or others seen this one of Criss pulling a lady apart on a bench yet? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OepvNl9AwtE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OepvNl9AwtE) Anyone want to take a stab on how it is done? I’ve got several scenario’s of how I think he did it. razncain ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/42 "2009-03-03T17:49:48Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > (e) the professionals that I know haven’t reported any actual damage to their business arising from these shows. Just a quick data point on this one… I love to watch shows that reveal the “secrets” of magic. In Vegas, the only show I wanted to see was Penn & Teller. I find it fascinating to find out how a trick is done and I can appreciate the skill and planning that went into it. But when I watch a “real” magic show, I just feel lied to. I walk out feeling frustrated and insulted. I can’t for the life of me figure out what other people enjoy about it. So I think there may be totally separate markets, and they can both co-exist simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/43 "2009-03-03T18:13:16Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Criss pulling a lady apart on a bench yet? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OepvNl9AwtE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OepvNl9AwtE) > Anyone want to take a stab on how it is done? HELP!!! I need help!!! I’ll never be able to go to sleep tonight–That was one great trick! And the horrified reactions of the audience added to the atmosphere. Yeah, I was horrified, too. And now I’m really, really worried that I won’t be able to sleep—because my brain is overloaded l trying to figure out how he did it. 🙂 Starting with the two young girls is a good distraction, because they are wearing normal clothes, and they giggle and react like a normal street audience, so you don’t notice the suspiciously quiet , dour matron wearing the unfashionable dress. (who would normally not be the person you expect to be picked for participation) There are two very small people inside that dress–but how did they move so so smoothly together? When she walks towards the bench, the camera deliberately doesn’t focus on her, but you do see a step or two of a very natural looking walk. When Criss thumps on her belly, he is apparently releasing the latch on some kind of mechanism that held them together. But what kind of harness could you make that would tie two people together in such a way that they look like one? I gotta know!!! And I gotta know _now_, 'cause otherwise I’m gonna have nightmares: what will happen to me if, just like the woman on the bench, I get my belly thumped in the middle of the night? ('cause this happens to me often, whenever my cat decides it’s time to eat) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/44 "2009-03-03T18:15:49Z")
If you can’t figure that one out, I suggest looking up Johnny Eck (famous “half man” sideshow star). He was doing the same trick back in the 1930s. Which just goes to show - a good trick stays a good trick, if you do it right. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/45 "2009-03-03T20:13:51Z")
Quoth **Sitnam** : > [@](#): > > how many ways are there to … guess the right playing card? Probably dozens. Just off the top of my head, I can think of at least ten, and I never got beyond the Fisher-Price level of magic tricks. 1: The cards are beveled into a slight trapezoid shape, instead of a rectangle. When the audience member puts the card back, it’s backwards, so the magician can find it by the edges protruding slightly. 2: The cards are marked on the back. The magician reads the markings. 3: The deck is pre-prepared, such that every single card is the seven of spades (or whatever). 4: The magician chose the card, not the audience member, and contrived to get the audience member to “freely choose” that particular card by any of a variety of methods. One of these is to lay them out in an orderly array face-down, and ask the mark “Choose six of these twelve piles”, and then either “OK, I’ll clear away these piles you chose, leaving these others…”, or “OK, I’ll leave the piles you chose, and clear away the others…”. 5: The chosen card was replaced on the top or bottom of the deck, and the magician uses a trick shuffle to leave it there. 6: The chosen card was replaced on the top or bottom of the deck, and the magician knows what the card next to it is, and uses a trick shuffle to keep it next to that card. 7: The magician saw the reflection of the card in a mirror behind the mark, or in the mark’s glasses, or in some other surface. 8: The magician has a confederate behind the mark who looks at the card and signals the magician somehow. 9: The “mark” is himself a confederate. 10: The magician has an “out” for every card in the deck. He asks the mark what the card was, and then reveals that that card is written on a piece of paper underneath the mark’s chair. Or if the mark had chosen differently, it might have been in an envelope in the middle of the table, or rolled up in the window blind, or under someone else’s chair, or… ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/46 "2009-03-03T21:08:35Z")
Two examples of a similar trick I’ve seen on TV. One completely dishonest and misrepresented and the other an awesome trick. 1. David Blaine street levitation. We are shown David on the street gathering a group of people to stand together in a group to watch him. We then see a shot of Davids feet standing on the ground and then rise up about 6"-10". Shot goes back to group of people flipping out at how amazing it was. A complete sham. It was revealed later that David did do a levitation trick (the Balducci levitation) and the reaction of the group was real, however the shot we see of him raising a good 6-10" in the air was edited in later. The actual Balducci trick has the performer raising 2"-3" and is a nifty little illusion but we don’t see David performing that. Complete B.S. 2. I have also seen Criss Angel’s street levitation. Camera is stationary, he walks up to a low wall or bench, stands facing it with his back to the camera, feet together, and suddenly levitates up and onto the wall/bench. The first time I saw it I was skeptical and was sure it was more creative TV editing, prop bench/wall, or something else. When I saw the reveal of how it was done I was blown away. It was an ingenious, honest illusion. No camera trickery, no prop bench/wall. In other words what was shown was how it was presented. Bravo! Excellent trick! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/47 "2009-03-03T21:20:08Z")
[Earlier major thread on pulling the woman apart](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=376893&highlight=criss+angel). ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/48 "2009-03-03T22:26:51Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > So you like being fooled by magicians, but you’re upset that they lie about how they do the tricks… > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > If I may, he appreciates illusionists that work in front of an audience but not a special-effects artist who depends on camera placement and a fake audience. > [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > If I may speak for **glee** , I would say that I’m upset when a trick is supposed to fool those in close proximity of the trick when if fact they’re all in on it. That’s different from street magic when sleight of hand and maybe _one_ other person are key to the trick being successful and all others watching are amazed and don’t know how it’s done. Thanks to CookingWithGas and Uncommon Sense - you have my opinion exactly! Smeghead, I posted this earlier: > [@glee](#): > > Penn and Teller only show how their own tricks are done, which seems fine to me. > And even when they explain them you can still marvel at the skill involved. > > By contrast, I could do most of Criss Angel’s tricks mentioned above - with perhaps one quick rehearsal. > [@Smeghead](#): > > I guess that just seems like an arbitrary distinction to make when the entire process is nothing but applied misdirection and deception. It’s all part of the same art, seems to me. I reiterate that the big difference for me is that it would take me ages to learn how to do Penn and Teller’s tricks (assuming I even have the requisite skills of sleight-of-hand, timing and showmanship). But I could do any of Criss Angel’s tricks above with a few seconds practice. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/49 "2009-03-03T23:55:12Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > This is the difference: We’d like to think that the camera is just another member of the audience, and the trick would be identical if we were there in person instead of watching on TV. I think this is very well said, and that’s the way I would phrase it. It is OK to use confederates, unless the presence of the confederate removes the need for any abilities at all. For example, if I am doing a “guess the card” routine, but my confederate just says “Yes! That’s it!” regardless of whatever card I reveal, then there is no magic trick. There is zero skill involved. If I pretend to levitate with camera effects (e.g. erasing the ground under my feet by editing the video), and pay a bunch of people to gasp in amazement, then there is no magic trick either. Unless you count the magic of being able to edit video. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/50 "2009-03-03T23:58:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I have attended skeptic conferences in the past, and observed the best performing artists (and this includes you, Ianzin), but when their performance stops short of revealing the principles, I feel defrauded. I didn’t go to be entertained – Las Vegas is for that – I went to find out the rational explanation for what appears to be magic. Go to a magic shop, spend oodles of cash on magic books, read all of them, start thinking around the subject - how certain techniques could be used in a different way to that described in the books, read online and offline magic journals, get yourself known at the magic shop so you can just pop in to chat to the people there. Suggest a couple of interesting ideas for tricks to them, maybe they’ll suggest a couple to you. Spend a couple of years doing this rather than just expect it all to be handed to you on a plate. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/51 "2009-03-04T00:02:54Z")
I enjoy the shows that show how the tricks are done. The guys who come up with the devices are very inventive. It is on once a week here. Magicians have to practice endlessly. They develop incredible skills . I am still impressed. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/52 "2009-03-04T00:04:01Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > If I pretend to levitate with camera effects (e.g. erasing the ground under my feet by editing the video), and pay a bunch of people to gasp in amazement, then there is no magic trick either. Unless you count the magic of being able to edit video. I think you and others on this thread have a different definition of what a “trick” is. A trick is defined (by magicians) in terms of the effect it has - it doesn’t matter how you do it. In fact magicians don’t even call them “tricks”, they call them “effects”. If it has an effect on people watching on TV then it’s all good, it’s still a trick because it still has an effect on some people. That’s the only requirement. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/53 "2009-03-04T00:14:14Z")
[http://www.wondertv.info/video/Secrets-Of-The-Street-Magicia](http://www.wondertv.info/video/Secrets-Of-The-Street-Magicia) Heres one you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/54 "2009-03-04T01:42:12Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Go to a magic shop, spend oodles of cash on magic books, read all of them, start thinking around the subject - how certain techniques could be used in a different way to that described in the books, read online and offline magic journals, get yourself known at the magic shop so you can just pop in to chat to the people there. Suggest a couple of interesting ideas for tricks to them, maybe they’ll suggest a couple to you. > > Spend a couple of years doing this rather than just expect it all to be handed to you on a plate. A couple of years? Hah! I have done that for decades. I can explain most magic tricks, especially those done by amateurs. By stepping one frame at a time, I have been able to explain some very convincing ones done on video. By knowing misdirection principles and how people are fooled, I can explain many. But the quality of those done at skeptic’s seminars is top notch. They’re in a room full of people who train themselves to be observant and know much about illusions. These performers are not doing your grandfather’s magic. I don’t expect anything to be handed to me on a plate, but I don’t claim to know everything, either, and I take offense at your accusation. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/55 "2009-03-04T02:28:48Z")
Sounds like you’re doing it back to front, wrong way round. You’re watching a video and then attempting to deconstruct it. That’s the quickest way to get the wrong end of the stick. You need to start from first principles and then proceed from there. You need to read dozens of really boring, dense books written in about 1840 and build up your knowledge incrementally layer upon layer. You need to practice what you’ve read for hours because that’s the only way you truly understand how it actually works in the real world (or doesn’t work as often happens - but even then you learn why it doesn’t work). No need to take offence - none was intended. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/56 "2009-03-04T04:57:13Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Their business is deceit, and if a lie will help make the trick more believable, they certainly will use whatever means necessary. It’s part of the trade. If a magician can get away with a simple lie by saying that the bystanders are not in on it, and that helps make the trick more believable, then they will use it; it isn’t just Criss doing this. David Copperfield’s live audience was in on it when he made the Statue of Liberty disappear. David Blaine has shills too, and he tends to use a bit more editing with his so-called street magic, such as variations of his levitation, or is guessing a card that someone is thinking of. > > razncain No, Criss Angel is by far the bigger shilling, prop, and editing magician. And for that I think he is a much less talented magician than David Blaine. Blaine really does close-up card work and “street magic” in the minimalist (and hardest) sense. For every hour of Blaine video compared to every Hour of Angel’s video, Blaine has 80% less shilling, propping, and editing than Angel. Blaine really is a single close-up magician in a totally uncontrolled and unrehearsed street setting. Angel… never. Blaine’s a brilliant card and technical magician, and Angel can’t touch him on that or sleights for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/57 "2009-03-04T05:01:25Z")
I’ll bet Musicat likes to steal ballons from children and pop them. Probably kicks puppies, too. He’s a spoiler, can’t stand wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/58 "2009-03-04T05:11:10Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I’ll bet Musicat likes to steal ballons from children and pop them. Probably kicks puppies, too. He’s a spoiler, can’t stand wonder. Lighten up, willya? They’re just tricks. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/59 "2009-03-04T05:28:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Lighten up, willya? They’re just tricks. Oh, it was all tongue in cheek about the kids and puppies. And “spoiler” is a (mild) term of the trade for people like him. Ten to One, he’s a bad spectator. What he doesn’t seem to understand is that Magicians are mostly performers, showman first, and what he wants to do is ruin their act. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/60 "2009-03-04T16:47:08Z")
It’s kind of amusing hearing professional spoilers/hecklers/bad spectators/skeptics talk about “figuring out” magic. It misses the point entirely and proves rather spectacularly that they don’t know the first thing about magic. It’s like watching somebody describe an iceberg, they only see the 20% above the water and miss the majority of it. I wouldn’t trust your interpretation of how any effect is done because you’re missing the point and don’t even know the basics of the brotherhood. Here’s a question for the types posting in this thread that magicians would be interested in knowing. Say a magician (amateur, friend, or otherwise) is showing you a magic trick close up. How many of you have actively interfered with that magician during his act or heckled them or otherwise spoiled the trick for the other people being entertained? If you knew anything about magic you would realize that you are the trolls and hecklers of the magic world. (Although most present no obstacle for the consummate magician, innovator, and showman.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015.md?page=4)