# Magic tricks, mystification and morality (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015 "2009-03-02T15:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/61 "2009-03-04T17:49:16Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > It’s kind of amusing hearing professional spoilers/hecklers/bad spectators/skeptics talk about “figuring out” magic. It misses the point entirely and proves rather spectacularly that they don’t know the first thing about magic. It’s like watching somebody describe an iceberg, they only see the 20% above the water and miss the majority of it. I wouldn’t trust your interpretation of how any effect is done because you’re missing the point and don’t even know the basics of the brotherhood. Brotherhood? It’s a bunch of guys doing tricks. Sure, they have a collective incentive to maintain their trade secrets and such, but what they do is no more wondrous (arguably much less, in fact) than what engineers do when they construct a bridge or surgeons do when they repair a heart valve. > [@](#): > > Here’s a question for the types posting in this thread that magicians would be interested in knowing. Say a magician (amateur, friend, or otherwise) is showing you a magic trick close up. How many of you have actively interfered with that magician during his act or heckled them or otherwise spoiled the trick for the other people being entertained? > > If you knew anything about magic you would realize that you are the trolls and hecklers of the magic world. (Although most present no obstacle for the consummate magician, innovator, and showman.) Meh. It’s the same as someone who interferes with _any_ performance, be it of a play or a comedy routine or a display of athletic skill. Let the performer do his thing, _then_ deconstruct it. The magicians don’t get a pass because of “magic”; simple politeness to one’s fellow audience members precludes a civilized person from making a nuisance of himself during the performance. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/62 "2009-03-04T18:35:28Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I guess that just seems like an arbitrary distinction to make when the entire process is nothing but applied misdirection and deception. It’s all part of the same art, seems to me. The word “art” is the key for me. The magician’s art is not the same as the movie director’s art. The three “phony” tricks are simply filmed special effects, with actors pretending to be amazed, under the guise of “street magic”. This is art, but movie director art. The art of camera placement, keeping the crane out of frame, making sure the actors don’t swim into the plastic walkway and ruin the take. Magician’s art is live. It’s about making a live audience believe the impossible is happening, or at least to accomplish the “impossible” without revealing how it is actually done. It’s about being such a skilled and accomplished showman that nobody in the audience ever sees how the trick is done. Saying you’re performing magic when you’re really just filming a special effect is not misdirection, it’s just lying, it’s crap, and any magician doing it should be ashamed of himself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/63 "2009-03-04T19:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s kind of amusing hearing professional spoilers/hecklers/bad spectators/skeptics talk about “figuring out” magic. It misses the point entirely and proves rather spectacularly that they don’t know the first thing about magic. The point of a magic show is for the spectators to have fun, right? Well, some of us have fun trying to figure out how a trick is done. The magician wants to have fun, we’re having fun, there’s no problem. If anyone’s missing the point, it’s the people who think that the deconstructors don’t enjoy magic shows. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/64 "2009-03-04T20:13:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even if I know what the magician is doing, I can still respect the artistry of the performance. Heck, [a while back we deconstructed a David Copperfield trick](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=381517) and this process was more entertaining for me than the trick itself. I haven’t bothered to read the deconstruction, but when I saw that video linked in the thread, I was astonished. He put together a really great act on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/65 "2009-03-04T20:43:27Z")
Once you start allowing camera tricks, where does it end? The magician could grow wings and flap away, or morph into a dragon, or open his mouth wide enough to swallow a car. Combine it with an audience of shills pretending to be impressed, and you’re done. Anything goes, right? With today’s level of technology in computer-generated animation, anything you can think of can be presented on-screen. So there would be no point anymore in talking about one magician being more skilled than another. I could be seen eating the moon, and then the next day someone else would upstage me and eat the sun. What’s the point? But the entertainment factor comes from seeing someone do something which should be impossible. Once the audience accepts that camera tricks are allowed, “impossible” becomes meaningless. Sure, you can still admire the skills of the special effects team, but then we’re talking about an entirely different kind of entertainment. So, in order for televised (as opposed to live) magic to have a point, there have to be some rules. The main rule for me is that if a trick can _only_ be done on camera, and could never have been replicated live with me standing in the place of the camera, then it’s not a magic trick anymore but just a special effect. As for using confederates: I’d say the rule there should be that if the audience realizes that you may be using confederates and they _still_ can’t figure it out, then it’s fine, but if _the entire trick_ consists of the fact that the randomly-chosen audience member was actually a plant, then there’s no trick left. For example, in David Copperfield’s famous flying illusion, he ends by choosing a lady from the audience and taking her up into the air. Most people probably realize that the lady was a plant, but that still doesn’t get you much farther in figuring out how the trick was done. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/66 "2009-03-04T23:22:07Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > I haven’t bothered to read the deconstruction, but when I saw that video linked in the thread, I was astonished. He put together a really great act on that one. Yes, and it’s certainly possible to figure out the trick _and_ be impressed by the skill with which it was done. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/67 "2009-03-04T23:27:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Brotherhood? It’s a bunch of guys doing tricks. Sure, they have a collective incentive to maintain their trade secrets and such, but what they do is no more wondrous (arguably much less, in fact) than what engineers do when they construct a bridge or surgeons do when they repair a heart valve. Wtf? What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China? It’s totally irrelevant to my post. Magicians have a much different profession and society than engineers and surgeons and many belong to the International Brotherhood of Magicians. And yea, I agree that engineers and surgeons do really important work. But what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Entertainers are less important than Engineers and Surgeons…? Ok, I agree. (But I’ll bet that Chriss Angel and Penn and Teller make more money than most surgeons and engineers, so there must be some value in it for someone, No? Entertainment value, perhaps?) [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Meh. It’s the same as someone who interferes with _any_ performance, be it of a play or a comedy routine or a display of athletic skill. Let the performer do his thing, _then_ deconstruct it. The magicians don’t get a pass because of “magic”; simple politeness to one’s fellow audience members precludes a civilized person from making a nuisance of himself during the performance. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t answer my question? Ever Troll a magician, **Ekers**? Ruin it for the rest of the people? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/68 "2009-03-04T23:48:13Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Wtf? If you’re going to use pretentious phrases like “the basics of the brotherhood”, you should get used to that sort of response. You obviously aren’t referring to the mundane bylaws of their trade union. > [@](#): > > Ever Troll a magician, **Ekers**? Ruin it for the rest of the people? No, and it’s unclear to me _anyone_ here has. You just made up a label and are looking for someone to pin it on. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/69 "2009-03-05T01:18:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you’re going to use pretentious phrases like “the basics of the brotherhood”, you should get used to that sort of response. You obviously aren’t referring to the mundane bylaws of their trade union. Is it pretentious for a surgeon to be in brotherhood with other surgeons, or an engineer to be in brotherhood with another engineer? (Bet the IBEW has a few Engineers.) Magicians do have quite a **strange** brotherhood, I’ll give you that. And that is due to the arcane and specialized nature and the apprenticeship of magic as a subset of the Entertainment profession. Like I heard Silvio Dante say on the Sopranos… “There are two things that are always recession-proof --certain aspects of the entertainment industry and…our thing.” I always thought magic was one of those “certain aspects of the entertainment industry”. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] No, and it’s unclear to me _anyone_ here has. You just made up a label and are looking for someone to pin it on. [/QUOTE] He says… in a thread dedicated to spoiling magic and trolling magicians. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/70 "2009-03-05T04:19:53Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > He says… in a thread dedicated to spoiling magic and trolling magicians. Except we’re not. We’re simply analyzing magic tricks and trying to figure out how they’re done. This isn’t spoiling or trolling by any reasonable definition. They fact that you think it is indicates that there is a fundamental disconnect here. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/71 "2009-03-05T04:20:41Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > No, Criss Angel is by far the bigger shilling, prop, and editing magician. And for that I think he is a much less talented magician than David Blaine. Blaine really does close-up card work and “street magic” in the minimalist (and hardest) sense. For every hour of Blaine video compared to every Hour of Angel’s video, Blaine has 80% less shilling, propping, and editing than Angel. Blaine really is a single close-up magician in a totally uncontrolled and unrehearsed street setting. Angel… never. From my observations of all of them, I would have to say that he is too. It seems he always is taking shortcuts, and my best guess with his pulling the lady in half every one of the bystanders were in on it, and he just relied mostly on editing and a few small props, but did need one person without legs and/or torso. I do know this trick can be done in front of thousands in the audience, and IIRC also live TV, because I had seen it last year by a magician on stage where there were many other magicians performing too, and I might add he did a far better job than Criss, and put on a much better show, which didn’t allow for any editing. Blaine does have some good sleight of hand tricks, which is my favorite to watch, and perhaps not as many shills, but he seems to have plenty of his props too, and can name plenty. His frozen cubicle I thought totally ridiculous, and he has a lot of other stupid stuff out there as well. His melancholy approach of sitting their deadpan while performing has gotten a bit stale also, to me, anyway. The [funniest spoof of Blaine](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34HwKn0vx4) on youtube. > [@](#): > > It’s kind of amusing hearing professional spoilers/hecklers/bad spectators/skeptics talk about “figuring out” magic. It misses the point entirely and proves rather spectacularly that they don’t know the first thing about magic. It’s like watching somebody describe an iceberg, they only see the 20% above the water and miss the majority of it. I wouldn’t trust your interpretation of how any effect is done because you’re missing the point and don’t even know the basics of the brotherhood. It’s not important to know exactly how they pulled off the trick in every detail. For me, it’s only important to know if I can come up with at least one way to duplicate, and possibly might even have ways to improve on it. But I’m not a magician. A good showman will still have my respect, especially the great illusions and sleight of hand artists. I also like the black art magic too, and perhaps every audience member has a basic understanding of how that works; it doesn’t take away from the show in the least. I like to be deceived like anyone else, and I hope they bring their A game. > [@](#): > > Here’s a question for the types posting in this thread that magicians would be interested in knowing. Say a magician (amateur, friend, or otherwise) is showing you a magic trick close up. How many of you have actively interfered with that magician during his act or heckled them or otherwise spoiled the trick for the other people being entertained? I never have and never will. I don’t believe most do, even if they do know the trick, because they still enjoy seeing others get deceived, and from my experience the vast majority do keep quite. I don’t care for the hecklers or spoiler types too, and think they are jerks when they are exposing the trick while it is being done. However, I see nothing wrong for inquisitive minds that want to learn more about the trick later on, and one doesn’t need to be in the brotherhood for that to share info with others on how they think it is done. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/72 "2009-03-05T15:20:01Z")
I want to correct myself with part of this statement I wrote earlier: \* but did need one person without legs and/or torso.\* A good special effects person can obviously take care of this to in the editing room. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/73 "2009-03-05T16:28:03Z")
> [@Walton\_Firm](#): > > As for using confederates: I’d say the rule there should be that if the audience realizes that you may be using confederates and they _still_ can’t figure it out, then it’s fine, but if _the entire trick_ consists of the fact that the randomly-chosen audience member was actually a plant, then there’s no trick left. On the other hand, I would say that if confederates are used and the audience has no idea, that’s an even better trick. Look, no one is doing any real magic. Magicians are always working to fool you into seeing what you did not actually see. Props, helpers, hidden pockets - all the same thing. Tools to put on a better act. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/74 "2009-03-05T16:42:17Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > On the other hand, I would say that if confederates are used and the audience has no idea, that’s an even better trick. Look, no one is doing any real magic. Magicians are always working to fool you into seeing what you did not actually see. Props, helpers, hidden pockets - all the same thing. Tools to put on a better act. Absolutely. Yep, use every tool you possibly can, lie every chance you can get if you can get away with it, use confederates, props, anything and everything if it works, which would include edits too, but I don’t think that part is working anymore, and probably the reason many are down on that kind of magic. It would be great if nobody was the wiser, and it still does work for some that will believe the confederates are telling the truth and he is not editing, but I think the numbers are dwindling. Many know better now. It’s lazy, cheap, and one of the reasons Criss Angel bombed in Vegas. He relies too much on editing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/75 "2009-03-05T21:18:26Z")
I tend to get impatient with televised magic performances where there are far too many camera jumps, close-ups, etc. Penn and Teller did a “disappearing submarine” bit a while back and as I recall, kept repeating how the cameras were keeping them honest, or something. This clearly wasn’t the case since the camera work itself was designed to obscure the trick to the home audience. I was also annoyed that they dragged this out over 30 minutes or so, with the promise at each commercial break that at the end, they’d reveal how the trick was done. They didn’t, though it was obvious enough anyway, and altogether way too Criss-ish. I like Penn and Teller and expected more from them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/76 "2009-03-05T21:32:54Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Magicians do have quite a **strange** brotherhood, I’ll give you that. No need for the gift, since I’m claiming no such thing. I figure magicians have the same basic range of personalities as any group of performing artists. If I had to guess, I’d say a group of stand-up comedians were likely to have members that were even _more_ extreme, what with drug use and all. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/77 "2009-03-06T01:09:27Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I’ll bet Musicat likes to steal ballons from children and pop them. Probably kicks puppies, too. He’s a spoiler, can’t stand wonder. No, and I can’t figure out why a simple desire to find out what makes things tick would lead you to that conclusion about anyone. Didn’t you ever take something apart as a kid to learn how it works? Is it wrong to want to know? Isn’t curiosity about how things work a basic building block of science? Why is it acceptable to wonder how biological or chemical processes work but not how magic is done? “How does a bird fly?” “It’s magic, you don’t ask how.” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/78 "2009-03-06T02:49:35Z")
[hijack] First Magician: Who was that lady I sawed with you last night? Second Magician: That was no lady, that was my half-sister. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/79 "2009-03-06T04:51:10Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > So you like being fooled by magicians, but you’re upset that they lie about how they do the tricks… There’s a difference between performing a live magic show that consists of tricks and deceptions vs. _claiming_ you’re showing footage of a live magic show when in fact you’re showing a bunch of actors. Televised magic shows lose all their appeal unless we can trust the magicians that they’re really showing us a real show in front of a live audience. If we can’t trust them on this point, then _every_ trick can be explained as “camera tricks and computer generated effects”. That ruins everything, because magic tricks are only fun if it’s _hard_ to think of a way it could be achieved. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/80 "2009-03-06T06:20:43Z")
> [@glee](#): > > 1. A crane with a wire leading to a harness. The crane arm is clearly visible to all the ‘pedestrians’. So, how is it that the wire is invisible? In broad daylight? To a camera? Just asking. I am a magic fan and pretty much spot all the tricks that these guys use, but it seems that you could see a wire. I remember when Chris Angel “levitated” down from the atrium of the Luxor. Very impressive. Must be a pretty fine wire not to show up. Personally I like the close up magic that requires practice and dexterity. The most disappointing show I ever saw was S&R in Vegas. All big prop based illusions. Utter crap. /went to see two Copperfield shows just to suss out the “portal” illusion //very simple ///magicians lie ////just watch the show and enjoy, the reality is always pedestrian /////gotta give Copperfield props, at least he does new stuff [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015.md?page=5)