# Magic tricks, mystification and morality (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015 "2009-03-02T15:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/81 "2009-03-06T06:22:39Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Besides, as pointed out earlier, the Masked Magician is hardly the only one doing it. Penn and Teller do the cup-and-balls with clear plastic cups in a way that makes you appreciate the artistry, and I’ve seen them do [this one](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H81A3bU68k) live, giving away the gag. I saw their show a few months ago, and they did the cup-and-balls trick. There’s video of it online, and the skill is damn impressive, but not impossible to figure out. [This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qQX-jayixQ) is still one of my favorites of theirs, Penn explaining the seven principles of magic while Teller does a sleight-of-hand routine. It may have been the first thing I ever saw them do, on TV about 20 years ago, and I saw it live last fall. Sometimes the best art is simple. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/82 "2009-03-06T08:06:28Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > So, how is it that the wire is invisible? In broad daylight? To a camera? > > Just asking. I am a magic fan and pretty much spot all the tricks that these guys use, but it seems that you could see a wire. I remember when Chris Angel “levitated” down from the atrium of the Luxor. Very impressive. Must be a pretty fine wire not to show up. The cameras don’t pick up as much as you think, particularly when the fine wires are a hundred of feet or more away, and it seems the sky is a perfect backdrop for these kind of fine wires. Even if a camera was to pick up on a wire occasionally, if it’s not actually done in front of a live audience, then back to the edit room it would go. When I seen the special showing how this trick was done, it didn’t appear any editing was needed though. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/83 "2009-03-06T08:34:55Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Like I heard Silvio Dante say on the Sopranos… “There are two things that are always recession-proof --certain aspects of the entertainment industry and…our thing.” > > I always thought magic was one of those “certain aspects of the entertainment industry”. I think he was probably referring to prostitution, but you carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/84 "2009-03-06T08:50:17Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > The cameras don’t pick up as much as you think, particularly when the fine wires are a hundred of feet or more away, and it seems the sky is a perfect backdrop for these kind of fine wires. Even if a camera was to pick up on a wire occasionally, if it’s not actually done in front of a live audience, then back to the edit room it would go. When I seen the special showing how this trick was done, it didn’t appear any editing was needed though. Well, they are going to do it next Monday, but I probably won’t have access to a TV, so maybe a doper will post the gist of it! ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/85 "2009-03-06T08:52:31Z")
There have been several references in this thread to Penn & Teller. I think that in fairness to them, and to anyone actually interested in this subject, I should try to fight a small but crucial bit of ignorance. \*\* Robot Arm\*\* quoted **Max Torque** who referred to an earlier post saying that the Masked Magician and Penn & Teller both expose how tricks are done, the implication being that they are equivalent in some way. There are some important distinctions to be made here. **(1)** P&T made a name for themselves as ‘the bad boys of magic’, but this was just branding. They are hugely respected, liked and admired in the magic community. Teller himself is tremendously admired as one of the foremost magical inventors of our time. (He devises all of the magic in a P&T show.) Magicians differ in their views about how harmful the Masked Magician TV shows are. However, no-one in the community has any respect for these shows or the people involved, because there is nothing _to_ respect. There is no original creative work, and the performances are shoddy. **(2)** P&T do full-length shows that can last up to two hours (although their Vegas show isn’t quite this long). In the course of a full evening’s entertainment, ‘exposing how a trick is done’ is perhaps _one_ theme in _one or two_ routines, It is _never_ the _only_ theme, there is always some other point to the routine, something creative or funny or entertaining going on. They have a lot of great tricks, routines, illusions and comedy bits where they _never_ reveal the secret. The Masked Magician shows have nothing to offer except ‘this is how it’s done’ repeated over and over. \*\*(3) \*\*With one exception, P&T only reveal the method behind tricks and illusions that _they_ have devised and created. What’s more, created _specifically_ for a routine where exposing the method - or pretending to - is part of the structure of that bit in the show. In other words, they only explain the secrets behind some of their _own intellectual property_. Max linked to a clip of P&T performing a stage illusion called ‘Lift Off To Love’ where they ‘expose’ the method. But this is P&T’s own invention, nobody else does it or ever will. And the ‘methods’ involved in that particualr illusions are ones that bear precious little relation to any illusions performed by anyone else in the profession. Apart from anything else, LOTL calls for a raised, curtained stage _on_ a stage. I can’t think of any other illusion act that works this way or would want to). The Masked Magician shows involve no original, creative work at all. They just take illusions invented by other people, who may have devoted years of their life to creating a given illusion, and give away the secret in a few minutes. They do this without any permission from whoever created the illusion, without any credit or acknowledgement, and without the creator getting any money. **(4)** The one exception is the famous P&T ‘Cups & Balls’ routine. They perform the trick and then repeat it using clear plastic cups so you can see all the moves. As P&T have themselves pointed out many times, anyone who thinks that after seeing this routine they know how the Cups & Balls is done is kidding themselves. The routine is their own version of this classic trick, scripted so that it can be done by two people (no-one else does it this way). The ‘explanation’ part of the routine is intentionally written and performed at such high speed that it is dizzying and confusing, in a fun way. It is almost impossible for anyone to really take it all in. And the few ‘moves’ they show are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Cups & Balls methodology, technique and presentation. On at least one of their tours, P&T actually had another magician performing the classic Cups & Balls in the lobby of the theare at the interval. This was to prove the point that even after seeing the P&T version, a seasoned pro performing the trick would still amaze, baffle and entertain you. **(5)** Robot Arm also cited a routine in which Teller demonstrates seven principles of magic while Penn provides a running commentary. Again, there are key differences between this and what the Masked Magician shows are all about. This routine is P&T’s _own_ intellectual property. It doesn’t involve any magic trick as such: it’s just a guy stamping out a cigarette and lighting another. And no disrespect to **Robot Arm** , who I’m sure is a fan, but to refer to this routine as ‘simple’ suggests he has perhaps missed the point. The point of the routine is to show how a sleight of hand expert _could_ find an _absurdly complex_ way to do something very simple _that isn’t even a trick_. The fun of it is in Teller using difficult and over-complicated sleights _not_ to perform a magic trick, but to do something very ordinary (extinguish one cig and light another) where an onlooker would see nothing magical happen at all. It’s an original, witty, absurdist and offbeat idea. The people involved in the Masked MAgician shows couldn’t come up with anything original, witty and offbeat if their lives depended on it. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/86 "2009-03-06T09:10:58Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > The people involved in the Masked MAgician shows couldn’t come up with anything original, witty and offbeat if their lives depended on it. Yes, that is exactly it. That show “reveals” tricks that any amateur magician can spot from a mile away. So they aren’t really infringing on anybody’s creativity. All the stuff he does is old hat. I don’t really see a conflict here. The sort of person that watches “revealed” shows probably isn’t going to be spending a lot of money to see magicians. They are more likely to be like dopers, folks who just want to know the trick behind the trick. In that way, nobody is losing anything. Most people that are curious about magic have no problem finding out the secrets. As someone that is familiar with magic, I tend to fall into that category. Almost any magic trick is transparent to me, but I still pay good money to see magic, for the fun of it, and just in case I can’t figure out a gag, to give myself a puzzle. I probably spend more money to support magicians than the average joe, but at the same time I know how every trick is done. That does not detract from my enjoyment of a good performance! And again, I am somewhat obsessive. I bought tickets to Copperfield’s show twice so I could understand the “Portal” illusion. In hindsight, I wish I hadn’t spent the money! I had it pieced together 99% without the second visit. The thing is, these shows are made for folks who want to know how it is done. Not much magic can withstand that kind of scrutiny in the age of the Internet. Not many people watch the show, and it certainly doesn’t reduce the demand for magic performers, who, with rare exception, don’t make much money. It is a pauper’s profession, so all this outrage about denying folks their living is BS. Most “professional” magicians have day jobs or they would starve! Not to mention the fact that a lot of mid level magicians are downright creepy in their own right. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/87 "2009-03-06T11:07:33Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > That show “reveals” tricks that any amateur magician can spot from a mile away. So they aren’t really infringing on anybody’s creativity. The first sentence is untrue. The Masked Magician shows have explained the methods behind _some_ very sophisticated illusions that even interested amateurs may well not have known about. This observation is truer of later shows in the series than it is of earlier ones (i.e. more ‘damage limitation’ was exercised in earlier shows than in later shows). The second sentence doesn’t follow from the first. It’s a non-sequitur. The second sentence can be interpreted in two ways, but is untrue either way. If you mean ‘the shows aren’t exploiting anyone else’s creativity’, this isn’t untrue. The Masked Magician shows do nothing else _but_ exploit the original, creative work of other people. If you mean ‘the shows don’t stop other people from being creative’, I concede that in a strict sense you could say the MM shows in and of themselves don’t stop anyone else from creating new material. But look at the wider picture, and consider the long-term implications. There are only ever going to be so many principles involved in big stage illusions. The people who devise illusions find fresh and often very ingenious ways to use these principles (analogy: there are only so many colours and pigments, but a painter can paint an original picture). If the MM shows steadily expose every principle involved, which they could (given enough time), then there would be precious little left for the inventors to work with. > [@](#): > > The sort of person that watches “revealed” shows probably isn’t going to be spending a lot of money to see magicians. The point is not about share of attention or revenue. The point is whether one is illegitimately spoiling the trade of the other, which is a matter of considerable debate. > [@](#): > > They are more likely to be like dopers, folks who just want to know the trick behind the trick. It is not the case that all Dopers can be characterised in this way. > [@](#): > > Most people that are curious about magic have no problem finding out the secrets. This is not true, although it may be hard to assess, given that some people **think** they know the secrets even when they are wrong. Most people who have seen a magician perform a trick cannot even remember and describe what happened accurately, let alone accurately detail the methodology. I guess it depends what you mean by ‘curious about magic’. Those who are idly curious will not find it very easy to discover the methods behind most magic tricks. If by ‘curious’ you mean those with a sincere interest who want to invest the time to learn about magic and magical performance, yes, they will find it relatively easy to access magical knowledge, and those of us in the trade have no problems with this. In fact, we encourage it - just so long as there is sincere and long-term interest in learning about the art. It is only _idle_ curiosity that is discouraged and resisted. > [@](#): > > but at the same time I know how every trick is done. **Every** trick?! This is a very bold assertion, and the chances of it being factually true are close to zero. It is already the case that there is more published card magic than any one human being can possibly read in a single lifetime. > [@](#): > > In hindsight, I wish I hadn’t spent the money! I had it pieced together 99% without the second visit. This is an interesting assertion. How do you _know_ that the illusion is accomplished the way you _think_ it is? Have you had confirmation from informed sources? This is a particularly interesting example, because ‘Portal’ happens to be one of more well-protected secrets in the magic world, and all the operational details are known to very few people in the magic world. I know how it’s done, but only because I know some key people (including the guy who invented it, and another guy who is one of DC’s associates and collaborators). Some people in this thread have suggested or asserted that it involves green screen video technology. It doesn’t, and this method wouldn’t work anyway. > [@](#): > > Not many people watch the show Millions. > [@](#): > > and it certainly doesn’t reduce the demand for magic performers, who, with rare exception, don’t make much money. Another interesting sentence and juxtaposition of thoughts. There _are_ professional magicians who have asserted that the MM shows have impacted on their livelihood, although I concede that this is contentious. The second clause does not follow from the first, it’s a non-sequitur. The second clause is simply incorrect. Professional magicians span every income bracket, from those who make a little to those who make a lot. > [@](#): > > It is a pauper’s profession, so all this outrage about denying folks their living is BS. Most “professional” magicians have day jobs or they would starve! Not so, by definition. Those who are professional do it for a living, and have no other source of income. Also, not true in fact. I know hundreds of professional magicians who earn their living just by doing magic, and as stated above they cover every income bracket. > [@](#): > > Not to mention the fact that a lot of mid level magicians are downright creepy in their own right. Your opinion is your opinion. I have difficulty seeing how most of **Stan** ’s post fits into GQ, a forum where we post factual questions and hope for factual answers. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/88 "2009-03-06T15:16:53Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > So, how is it that the wire is invisible? In broad daylight? To a camera? If it’s a sunny day (as it usually is in Vegas!), then the wire is effectively invisible when the camera is pointing skywards. The crane arm is **not** invisible and has to be avoided by the camera. I repeat that my objection to Criss Angel’s street magic is when: - everyone in shot is a stooge - any passer-by could see how it’s done - the entire area has had to have been prepared well in advance - anyone could do the trick as the props do all the work > [@ianzin](#): > > **(2)** P&T do full-length shows that can last up to two hours (although their Vegas show isn’t quite this long). In the course of a full evening’s entertainment, ‘exposing how a trick is done’ is perhaps _one_ theme in _one or two_ routines, It is _never_ the _only_ theme, there is always some other point to the routine, something creative or funny or entertaining going on. They have a lot of great tricks, routines, illusions and comedy bits where they _never_ reveal the secret. The Masked Magician shows have nothing to offer except ‘this is how it’s done’ repeated over and over. Yes, I saw Penn and Teller in Vegas and was hugely entertained. 🙂 Even when they showed how a couple of their tricks were done, their timing, misdirection, showmanship, comedy and sheer professionalism impressed me enormously. 🆒 > [@ianzin](#): > > \*\*(3) \*\*With one exception, P&T only reveal the method behind tricks and illusions that _they_ have devised and created. What’s more, created _specifically_ for a routine where exposing the method - or pretending to - is part of the structure of that bit in the show. In other words, they only explain the secrets behind some of their _own intellectual property_. Fair point. I agree that there should be respect shown towards other magician’s tricks. However I feel that a **completely staged street trick** (see above) does let the profession down. I will happily pay to have an expert do card tricks right in front of me. He’s practised for hours and hours and deserves his reward. And I will buy tricks from shops, becasue then I can spread the fun around! ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/89 "2009-03-06T15:59:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Penn and Teller did a “disappearing submarine” bit a while back and as I recall, kept repeating how the cameras were keeping them honest, or something. This clearly wasn’t the case since the camera work itself was designed to obscure the trick to the home audience. I was also annoyed that they dragged this out over 30 minutes or so, with the promise at each commercial break that at the end, they’d reveal how the trick was done. **They didn’t,** though it was obvious enough anyway, and altogether way too Criss-ish. I like Penn and Teller and expected more from them. Sure they did. Maybe you missed the last scence of the show. The helicopter flying away carrying the submarine on a cable ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/90 "2009-03-06T17:40:22Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Like I heard Silvio Dante say on the Sopranos… “There are two things that are always recession-proof --certain aspects of the entertainment industry and…our thing.” > > I always thought magic was one of those “certain aspects of the entertainment industry”. > [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > I think he was probably referring to prostitution, but you carry on. I agree. However, he left it rather broad in phrasing. The oldest and most recession proof professions in the world… Soldiers, Magicians, Prostitutes, and Priests. (Magic might actually be a descendant to priesthood, in its earliest forms.) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/91 "2009-03-06T19:35:21Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > And no disrespect to **Robot Arm** , who I’m sure is a fan, but to refer to this routine as ‘simple’ suggests he has perhaps missed the point. I don’t think I did. I meant ‘simple’ in the sense that there are no whirling, flashing lights, no tigers, no distracting, scantily-clad assistants, no fast-talking huckster, no house band. It’s just Penn with a bass, and Teller with a cigarette; what could be simpler than that? All the smoke and mirrors stripped away so we can marvel at the pure skill. Except not quite. While Teller is showing some of the moves, there are a couple others that are hidden. And while he’s demonstrating misdirection, he gets a shocked look on his face and points. In any other trick, it would never be so blatant. Didn’t mean to perpetuate the comparison between them and the Masked Magician, either. Just needed a quote so I could link to that clip. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/92 "2009-03-07T03:15:00Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > /went to see two Copperfield shows just to suss out the “portal” illusion > //very simple > /// **magicians lie** > ////just watch the show and enjoy, the reality is always pedestrian > /////gotta give Copperfield props, at least he does new stuff See, it’s really unfortunate that magicians are synonomyous with liars. Magicians, I have found, are honest to a tee. They might apply deception, but the good ones are never dishonest. They might bend your reality to their will, but few lie. (Except that Chriss Angel… he lies, audaciously.) I am kind of torn about Chriss. Like it or not he has affected and entertained a new generation ::'“MINDFREAK”"\>\< He has also helped and supplemented the liveliehood of many great magical innovators and creators. See, A lot of the effects and “tricks” that Chris devises are not his own, but from a team of Great Modern Magical Minds. Chriss is just the avatar. The appropriately hip modern look and posterboy for Post Modern Magic. (Except for that Vegas Show… that is probably Chriss’s personal vision.) That’s his show… and I agree, what he does is brazen hussy. That rockstar mentality… you wanted spinal tap… you got it. This backlash against his lack of talents prove to me there is a demi- god. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015/93 "2009-03-07T04:49:17Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Sure they did. Maybe you missed the last scence of the show. > > The helicopter flying away carrying the submarine on a cable I did indeed see this scene and I’ll just figure you’re being sarcastic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic-tricks-mystification-and-morality-spoilers/488015.md?page=4)