# Magic **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625 "2001-08-28T23:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/21 "2001-08-29T23:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > …the best guy I’ve seen recently is Derren Brown, mind control expert. It’s not really magic and it’s not hypnosis - he reads what you are thinking by the expressions on your face. I doubt he can read expressions sufficiently well to get a number or name. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > Some things Ive seen him do: > > - He guessed some guy’s PIN number for his cashpoint card (and I don’t think the guy was a plant, as I said it’s not really conventional magic). I expect the guy **was** a plant. How else do you explain it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > > - He learnt the entire dictionary in 20 minutes and then got tested on it and passed. How do you know he didn’t look at a dictionary earlier? And he wasn’t tested on the **whole** dictionary, was he? And how do you know the questions weren’t pre-arranged? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > > - He asks people to think of the surname of a person they once knew from years ago. Then without them saying anything at all he guesses that name. Correctly. First time. In the example I saw the surname was “Kington”. Again I don’t think the person was a plant - just somebody he went up to on the street. I expect the guy **was** a plant. How else do you explain it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > Obviously these people COULD possibly be plants, I don’t know for sure but my feeling is that they aren’t. Trust me, they are. But, to be fair, his presentation is excellent! ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/22 "2001-08-29T23:58:16Z")
Sorry, Glee, but you are speculating about Derren Brown’s methods and you are way off target. In his TV shows, all the people and the reactions are real. No plants, no actors, no faked reactions, no stooges. I know Derren, and I know the consultants to his latest show (Andy Nyman, Richard MacDougall) and the producer (Anthony Owen). I’m a magician and mentalist (mind-reading type of magician) myself, and you are dead wrong. ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/23 "2001-08-29T23:59:50Z")
I know, I know it seems like they must be plants but I do have reasons for suspecting they arent. 1. The whole point about this guy is that what he does isnt conventional magic 2. I heard him on the radio interviewed by a fairly straight-up dj, Johnnie Walker (BBC Radio 2). He did the letter of the alphabet trick on him. I know this isnt proof positive but somehow in this case, I believe JW wasn’t in on it for two reasons: a) his reaction was a genuine one and hes a dj not a magicians accomplice b) as I say he’s a very straight up dj, it would be out of character for him to “dupe” his listeners I know reasons 1. and 2. above aren’t proof-positive but reason 3. is a killer 1. My sister met him in the city centre when he was filming one of his shows and he did some of these tricks on her and I KNOW she wasn’t a plant. Obviously, I could be lying about this, you have no way of knowing, but I swear to you Im telling the truth. Watch the programmes when they come on US TV and you’ll see what I mean. Please also note Im quite into magic myself (read books and learnt a few tricks myself) so Im not entirely gullible. I think this could be what he claims it is. For example, he claims he knows when people are lying by their eye movements - this may be difficult but not impossible if you were skilled enough. ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/24 "2001-08-30T00:05:56Z")
Hey ianzin, you know Derrin? How could he possibly tell someones pin number? He asked them to place their hand flat on the table - did they make miniscule finger movements, imagining they were typing in their number, which Derren was able to spot? Is this how its done? ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/25 "2001-08-30T01:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kilt-wearin’ man \* > \*\*Of course, everyone knows that the real trick to flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing… \*\* No, no, no. Flying is a matter of falling but forgetting to land. I suggest the Dent Method of suddenly thinking about a bottle of olive oil to distract yourself just before impact. ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Otter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Space\_Otter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Otter)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/26 "2001-08-30T03:47:51Z")
Glee wrote: I expect the guy was a plant. How else do you explain it? That’s sort of the mystery of mentalism. They appear to do the impossible through methods that are extremely arcane to you and I. I can almost guarantee he isn’t “reading peoples expressions” that’s just misdirection. But the truth is probably more bizarre and creative than we think. The guys who are good at mentalism like The Amazing Kreskin, David Blaine and this Derren Brown (I’m not familiar with him but I’ll take the other posters word about his abilities) have seemingly psychic powers but I know at least Kreskin and Blaine don’t claim any supernatural abilities. They’ll make vague statements like “I have powers normal people don’t understand”. Fair enough. Even Penn & Teller do a parody of mentalism with their Mofo routine and are very impressive. The simple fact is a good mentalist uses a wide variety of techniques, and doesn’t really need plants. Alot of it is just playing the odds, with a large crowd you’ll get many “hits” on things that seem like outside guesses. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/27 "2001-08-30T09:39:30Z")
OK, I don’t know any more about Derren Brown than I saw on TV (as I said, his patter was fine). But no-one has psychic abilities, so it must be a technique. > [@](#): > > - originally posted by Space Otter\* > A lot of it is just playing the odds, with a large crowd you’ll get many “hits” on things that seem like outright guesses. Yes, and that’s part of ‘cold reading’. But most of Derren’s work is with individuals. ianzin, as a man in the know, can you tell us some more? Does he find stuff out beforehand, or discard unsuccessful attempts for the TV show? ---
**Author:** ![Delta-9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Delta-9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delta-9)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/28 "2001-08-30T15:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ianzin \* > \*\*Sorry, Glee, but you are speculating about Derren Brown’s methods and you are way off target. In his TV shows, all the people and the reactions are real. No plants, no actors, no faked reactions, no stooges. > > I know Derren, and I know the consultants to his latest show (Andy Nyman, Richard MacDougall) and the producer (Anthony Owen). I’m a magician and mentalist (mind-reading type of magician) myself, and you are dead wrong. \*\* Pay no attention to this man, Glee. He’s one of _them._ 🙂 You don’t think **he’s** going to spoil it, now do you? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/29 "2001-09-04T00:20:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Otter \* > Yeah, Blaine has taken some shots for the editing of his specials, but that would apply to every magician. No, it wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > How come there’s no camera backstage showing us the set-up for a David Copperfield trick? That is a form of editing No, it’s not. Editing is the manipulation of film, not simply failing to tape something. Or can I put “_Fight Club_ editor” on my resume since I failed to tape that movie? > [@](#): > > He just emphasizes the important part of magic, suckering your audience. It’s generally agreed that magic is not just any suckering of the audience. For instance, George Lucas made it look like Liam Neeson was talking to aliens. But that doesn’t make him a “magician”. Computer animation is not a “magic trick”. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/30 "2001-09-04T01:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by xanakis_ > He learnt the entire dictionary in 20 minutes and then got tested on it and passed Even if the questioner wasn’t a plant, this feat isn’t necessarily so impressive. More likely than not he did not “learn” the entire dictionary; he was simply lucky in that he was asked to define words he already knew or whose meaning could be discerned with a basic knowledge of historical linguistics. For instance, the vast majority of technical words in English come to us through the classical languages. A word like pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis may seem like meaningless jargon to most folks, but anyone with a working knowledge of Ancient Greek – even if they’ve never seen the word before – can tell you in a heartbeat that it’s a disease (osis) of the lungs (pneumo) caused by extremely tiny (ultramicroscopic) particles of siliceous (silico) volcanic (volcano) dust (coni). Add to this the fact that a non-plant questioner is likely to pick the most strange-looking technical word (s)he can find in the misguided hope of stumping the magician. Exams for medical school classes on terminology often present facetious or nonce terms which students are then asked to define based on their knowledge of Greek. It can go the other way, too; I’ve seen assignments with improbable questions like, “Give the term for ‘intense pain involving something large and red’.” ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Otter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Space\_Otter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Otter)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/31 "2001-09-04T03:13:51Z")
Hmmm, **The Ryan** seems to confuse the issue. Magic is an inherent suspension of disbelief. When a magician saws a woman in two, do you expect that he actually saws a woman in two? Of course not. It is a clever trick. Just like special effects in a movie, we know that isn’t an alien planet, its just a trick. Some illusions are more effective than others, and we even know how many of the tricks are done in movies and magic, but that shouldn’t distract too much from the power of a well done illusion. Also, I think you take my use of the term “editing” too literally. Maybe I should use the term _error of omission_? This is the basis of all magic, televised or not. If it didn’t happen it wouldn’t be much of a trick. Do you really believe that any televised magic actually shows you what really goes on? They intentionally leave out the important stuff, like building a trapdoor in the stage. They limit the camera angles to those that won’t expose the props, etc. Whether there was a camera there or not, it is a conscious choice to omit. And that’s okay cause its _magic_. As to the difference between magic and other forms of illusion, it’s just a matter of tradition and expectation. Magicians are the stage performers who wear top hats and generally galavant around doing tricks with cards, pigeons and the like. There are many con men and religious figures and psychics who are better illusionists than magicians, but they perform on a different stage. ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/32 "2001-09-04T14:21:22Z")
Derren Brown does have some highly-honed skills that can look like mind reading. He even says himself that he “uses techniques to replicate psychic phenomena” rather than actually claiming to be psychic. He does seem to be able to read body language incredibly well but how he gets names and numbers from that I don’t know. There does seem to be some kind of hypnotism involved too. Try [http://www.channel4.com/mindcontrol](http://www.channel4.com/mindcontrol) for explanations of a few of his techniques. ---
**Author:** ![c\_goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@c\_goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_goat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/33 "2001-09-04T15:43:57Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by xanakis \* **- He guessed some guys PIN number for his cashpoint card (and I dont think the guy was a plant, as I said its not really coventional magic).** Did the guy use the ATM in the lobby before the show? ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/34 "2001-09-04T16:15:49Z")
Coincidintally, I saw a D.Blaine on TV last night so I watched with new awareness. I believe he does do some creative editing, but in one ‘trick’ he asked **two** people at the same time to think of any card in a deck of cards and got the both right in the same shot - no cut-away. Now I can see if you knew something about people’s probability of picking certain cards for certain phsycological reasons, you could expect a reasonable amount of hits and edit away the rest, but guessing two together _dramatically_ cuts into your odds. I ‘understand’ tricks like sawing a woman in half - lots of room and time for mis-direction - but mentalist…I don’t know…( think of a card - it’s the 4 of hearts) where’s the set-up? For the record, I do know it’s a trick, they are not reading your mind. I disagree with **Space Otter** ’s statement about Kreskin. On his show he said his tricks (of mentalism) were done by purely natural means available to anyone. Final note about Blaine, how, the hell, does he do the trick where he places his palm on the ground and have someone rotate his hand/arm 360 degrees??? ---
**Author:** ![wayward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/35 "2001-09-04T16:24:10Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by c\_goat \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > **- He guessed some guys PIN number for his cashpoint card (and I dont think the guy was a plant, as I said its not really coventional magic).** > > Did the guy use the ATM in the lobby before the show? \*\* That one was actually done at a private party. Derren got the guy to put his hand flat on the table and said something like “Look at me, concentrate on the first number… [writes a number] …Now the second number… [writes a number] …” And so on for all four. My guess is, like **xanakis** said, the guy made tiny movements as if he was pressing the numbers. As I mentioned before, he seems to be able to pick up on even incredibly subtle body language. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/36 "2001-09-04T18:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by warmgun \* > **Coincidintally, I saw a D.Blaine on TV last night so I watched with new awareness. I believe he does do some creative editing, but in one ‘trick’ he asked two people at the same time to think of any card in a deck of cards and got the both right in the same shot - no cut-away. Now I can see if you knew something about people’s probability of picking certain cards for certain phsycological reasons, you could expect a reasonable amount of hits and edit away the rest, but guessing two together _dramatically_ cuts into your odds.** Look at this way. Imagine that, in the segment, he asks, say, twenty people. He gets four right. Two of them happen to be in a row. When he edits them together, he gets one, thne another, then the two-in-a-row. If he hadn’t gotten two in a row, you wouldn’t have thought anything was amiss. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Final note about Blaine, how, the hell, does he do the trick where he places his palm on the ground and have someone rotate his hand/arm 360 degrees??? \*\* Fake arm much? That was one of very few tricks where he had long sleeves on. Yes, they showed him with the sleeves up “right after.” But there was a cut. Heck, he could have gone into a trailer and out again, and we wouldn’t know the difference. Shouldn’t be hard to build a fake hand that feels warm and real. ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/37 "2001-09-04T18:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Final note about Blaine, how, the hell, does he do the trick where he places his palm on the ground and have someone rotate his hand/arm 360 degrees??? \*\* It’s astounding that people are still duped by this old trick. Magic is about misdirection. The arm isn’t being twisted 360 degrees. It’s not a fake arm, either. Don’t you think the volunteer would notice a cold plastic arm? In the setup for the trick, the magician turns his arm inwards as the volunteer is put into position and instructed. This would be obvious if you could see his elbows. He wears long sleeves for a reason! The volunteer then pulls the hand back into the normal position and back round the other way. It’s quite simple. Put on a long sleeve shirt and try it yourself. Incidentally, if oyu don’t believe me or refuse to try it yourself, this trick was explained on one of those “Secrets of Magic Exposed” tv programs. Is there anyone here who’s under the illusion that magic is anything more than misdirection or clever editing? ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/38 "2001-09-04T19:08:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilhanz \* > \*\* Put on a long sleeve shirt and try it yourself. \*\* Hey! I’m a magician! > [@](#): > > \*\*Is there anyone here who’s under the illusion that magic is anything more than misdirection or clever editing? \*\* I doubt it. I think the problem some are having is definition. Could David Blaine do his act in front of a large, legit crowd and have the same success rate. Stage performers like Kreskin could stump Johnny Carson (a magic man hisself and known de-bunker - see the Yuri Geller episode) and, IIRC, always ‘guessed’ the right number, card, whatever. Misdirection in person is one thing, camera tricks on TV are quite another. And I know to ask is futile but, dang, I’d love to know how mentalist do there…well, mentalling. ---
**Author:** ![SteverinoAlaReno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@SteverinoAlaReno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteverinoAlaReno)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/39 "2001-09-04T19:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > **I expect the guy was a plant. How else do you explain it?** It sounds very similar to stuff The Amazing Kreskin has done in his act. Check out James Randl’s (? not sure of the last name) debunking of Kreskin. Also, check out “Big Secrets,” by William Poundstone. It’s got some explanations for mentalists’ acts. ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/40 "2001-09-04T22:25:15Z")
Got a cite for the Randi/ Kreskin debunking, Steverino? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625.md?page=3)