# Magic **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625 "2001-08-28T23:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/41 "2001-09-05T00:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > \*\* > ianzin, > as a man in the know, can you tell us some more? Does he find stuff out beforehand, or discard unsuccessful attempts for the TV show? \*\* Obviously I’m not going to tell you how Derren does what he does. That would spoil a lot of the fun. Here are some facts. 1. He does not use plants or stooges or actors or confederates. The people in his TV shows are real people, genuinely surprised at what Derren can do. 2. He does an awful lot of close-up live work at parties, corporate gigs etc., and he walks around doing things that are either the same as, or very similar to, the stuff you see on his TV shows. Obviously, for the TV shows, they can set up bigger and better demonstrations, use fancier locations, use more atmospheric touches and otherwise make it more suited to TV. But the demonstrations Derren gives are more or less the same as what he does live. 3. When you read about Derren using NLP, body language, hypnosis, very subtle cues etc., tread carefully and cautiously. Think it through. It is one thing to admire a very skilled performer who can create highly entertaining demonstrations of apparent ‘mind control’ that we haven’t seen before. It is quite another, on the back of these demonstrations, and with the help of uninformed speculation, to start lending credence to some very unproven and half-assed theories. If you can’t figure out how something was done, maybe that’s okay. It’s certainly more okay than lending credence to gibberish like NLP. Sorry if anyone doesn’t want to believe the above, but I do know what I’m talking about. There is a lot more detail on my website, but I believe the Mods disapprove of people advertising their websites, especially as mine has some commercial content, so I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/42 "2001-09-05T01:12:22Z")
Can’t you at least give us a clue as to where your website is? You know, a kind of cunning, slyly-hidden remark somewhere? I have 3 thoughts on your post, ianzin: 1. Whats NLP? 2. Your point 3. was very cryptic. You seem to be suggesting that it is all something other than what it seems, whereas Derrin seems to be saying that everything IS what it seems (he claims no psychic ability and he also claims that what he does is not “magic” in the conventional sense). I dont expect you to tell me how its all done, obviously. 3. Having said that, you’ve **got** to tell me how that PIN number trick was performed. You don’t understand - its not that I _want_ to know, its that I **have** to know or I will never be able to sleep again. ---
**Author:** ![Heath\_Doolin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Heath\_Doolin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heath_Doolin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/43 "2001-09-05T01:59:56Z")
Look I have said it many times before. Blaine is a ok magician. His close up work is not the best, he relys too much on his performance rather than his manipulation talent. His specials are HEAVILY edited (he has too, not everyone will be fooled by his Balducci Levitation and the way its filmed makes it impossible). He just gets press cause he is slick and looks better than say one of the greatest carders out there Ricky Jay. Jay is a card master and by all accounts around circles, highly respected for his talents. I always seriously suggest that anyone who thinks Blaine is amazing catch Ricky and his one man show. Guranteed you will be thinkin ‘David who’ after watching him. ---
**Author:** ![warmgun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecccb3/32.png) [@warmgun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warmgun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/44 "2001-09-05T05:20:32Z")
I think we’ve skewed off track a little. As performers, magicians don’t have to be _better_ than the next. It’s not a contest, like say weight lifting. These people are **entertainers** , as such it doesn’t matter if someone is technically better, it only matters that people are entertained. I know we all have our favorites, but…sheesh, let’s lighten up on these guys a little. They’re not saving the world - it’s showbiz! ---
**Author:** ![Heath\_Doolin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Heath\_Doolin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heath_Doolin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/45 "2001-09-05T06:55:04Z")
Perhaps warm but if you ever seen magicians at Magic castle or a convention, you will see competitiveness. Think of it this way. You both know the trick, both know the way its handled and have done it a hundred times. But one magician can palm the red jack better, faster, and in a way to be able to even fool the magician who knows the trick! Now that is a better magician. I am not saying Blaine is bad, he is great and very well conditioned. I just tire of people who are not in the know calling him the greatest or associating him with hot closeup magic (my personal magic preference). There are a lot out there and I feel it is necessary to perhaps cast a bit of that glarin spotlight on one you may not know of. ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/46 "2001-09-05T07:46:44Z")
When I was a kid, I went to this street fair where a guy had a stall. He gave me a book with thousands of names in it. He asked me to look through the book and see if I could pick out my name and then he could tell me what my name was. Even as a kid I knew to pick out my name and then pretend not to see it and look a few pages past where I saw my name but he still picked my name correctly. God’s truth. Now years later I still remember him. And now I know that he picked up my body language or eye movements. And that’s why I never play poker or gamble. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/47 "2001-09-05T22:45:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Otter \* > \*\*Hmmm, **The Ryan** seems to confuse the issue. Magic is an inherent suspension of disbelief. When a magician saws a woman in two, do you expect that he actually saws a woman in two? If a TV program shows a magician apparently sawing a woman in half, then I expect that he did in fact appear to saw a woman in half, and that they didn’t simply cut away while the woman stood up and walked away. The art of magic is in showing the audience one thing, and having the audience think that something else happened. The key is that you’re not actually lying about what’s happening; you’re just making the audience reach erroneous conclusions from what they see. But Blaine **does** lie about what’s happening. That’s not magic; that’s special effects. > [@](#): > > Just like special effects in a movie, we know that isn’t an alien planet, its just a trick. But it’s a different type of trick. Hiding a rabbit uder the table is completely different from digitally adding a rabbit to the film. The former is magic; the latter is not. > [@](#): > > Also, I think you take my use of the term “editing” too literally. Maybe I should use the term _error of omission_? But I’m not talking about “error of omission”; I’m talking a bout an error of commission. When they show a shot of a street performance, then switch to something filmed in a sound stage, then switch back to the street performance, that’s more than leaving stuff out. That’s putting stuff in. > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that any televised magic actually shows you what really goes on? I believe that what they show actually did happen. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/48 "2001-09-05T23:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > **Can’t you at least give us a clue as to where your website is? You know, a kind of cunning, slyly-hidden remark somewhere?** Not up to me. Up to the Mods. I respect the rules of this Board and don’t want to get myself barred. > [@](#): > > **1. Whats NLP?** Neuro-Lingusitic Programming. Very trendy and faddy right now. Loads of info all over the web, if you care to search for it. In my view, a load of over-hyped hooey. Or, more diplomatically, let’s say the bits of it that work are obvious, and the bits that aren’t obvious are far from demonstrably true. But hey, believe in it (and sign up for a course) if you want. I know Derren has been on an NLP course. I even know he even has the certficate framed over his fireplace. I also know NLP has v. little to do with what he does. But that’s all I’m saying. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3. Having said that, you’ve **got** to tell me how that PIN number trick was performed. You don’t understand - its not that I _want_ to know, its that I **have** to know or I will never be able to sleep again. \*\* Sorry, but no chance. Just appreciate the fact that Derren is the very best in the world at what he does, and his TV shows are first-class entertainment, as well as thought-provoking. Not only that, but he’s a VERY nice guy, and in real life a lot funnier and wittier than he may seem to be on screen. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/49 "2001-09-05T23:37:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ianzin \* > \*\* Not up to me. Up to the Mods. I respect the rules of this Board… \*\* We appreciate it. You can email him the site, or you can email it to me and I’ll take a peek. We’re generally pretty lenient about that stuff as long as one isn’t going out of one’s way to try to make a sale, so it’ll probably be OK. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/50 "2001-09-06T18:52:06Z")
With Manhattan’s permission, my website is: > **[Home - ian-rowland](https://ian-rowland.com/)** > > สปอย นิยาย สปอย มังงะ อันดับ1 รวดเร็วก่อนใคร เว็บรวบรวม ... Read more Wherein you’ll find information about cold reading (a pseudo-psychic technique) and a ‘beyond the psychic’ section which should provide some illumination as to what is, and is not, within the domain of trickery. ---
**Author:** ![Spyderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Spyderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spyderman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/51 "2001-09-06T19:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\* > The only one that totally stumped me (apart from some bait and switch prestidigitation, that always mystifies me) was the Great Wall of China, but I have since had that one explained to me. > > \*\* I’ve been trying to de-bunk this _trick_ for years and the only think I came up with is a possible tunnel under the wall,though I doubt that the Chinese Government would approve of this. I, for one, would like an explanation or a link on how this was done. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/52 "2001-09-06T19:36:45Z")
During the Wall Of China trick, wasn’t there a scene where an assistant leaned against the allegedly stone wall, and it bent like rubber? Then there was what was supposed to be Copperfield’s form stretching the wall out as if he was inside the wall, trying to get out, and the wall stretched out like it was made of rubber? I don’t see how anyone could argue there wasn’t a tunnel. I was really disappointed when I saw those two scenes mentioned above, it totally gave away the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Spyderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Spyderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spyderman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/53 "2001-09-06T19:41:26Z")
**Revtim** While I dont disagree with you about the tunnel, I am pretty sure that David Copperfield would have a hard time working with the Chinese Government on this one. I mean, would we let someone dig a tunnel,say, underneath the Lincoln Memorial or the Alamo? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/54 "2001-09-06T19:44:31Z")
Well, the only other possibility is that he was able to bend and stretch the stone wall as if it were rubber. I’ll still stick with the tunnel theory. It could have been a fake section, or even a section that already had a hole or tunnel in it. ---
**Author:** ![xanakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/7bcc69/32.png) [@xanakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanakis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/55 "2001-09-06T21:09:27Z")
Thanks for the link, Ian, thats a great site. The links page alone is going to take me a week to work through! One thing I wondered though was, in regard to the spoon bending, do you think that your technique (whatever that may be) is the same as the technique used by Uri Geller? Or does Geller use a different technique? Do you think Geller is being somewhat dishonest in that he is claiming that it is psychic powers that enable him to do what he does? Whereas you and Randi and others can do the same thing but claim no psychic ability. Im interested in cold reading but unfortunately Im quite poor and I dont have £40 to buy your book but I’ll order it through my local library so then they will buy your book for me. I think cold reading can account for an awful lot of the stuff that mentalists and “psychics” do but that doesnt make it any less impressive to actually see it done in front of your eyes. To be honest, Im not very interested in how cold reading will help me out in a business environment, I just want to wow people for fun. Of course cold reading wouldn’t explain how you can guess the initials of a person someone is thinking about. I have an idea about how this is done although I won’t post it here just in case Im right! Anyway, as I say, thanks for your input Ian. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/56 "2001-09-06T21:24:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I don’t see how anyone could argue there wasn’t a tunnel. \*\* No tunnel. I can give you a cast-iron, 100%, stake-my-life-on-it, gold-plated, swear-on-anything assurance that this stunt did not involve a tunnel under or through the wall. I won’t say how it’s done, because I’m in the trade and we don’t do that kind of thing. But, you know, if you really want the gen, it IS out there on the web. It just might take some serious searching to find it. We’ve now come some way from the OP, but I think this thread might serve up a useful pointer for the future. There is a degree of futility in asking questions about how magic tricks are done. The only people likely to know the actual answer are other magicians, and most of us don’t give away secrets. The rest is largely speculation, and conflicting speculation at that, by people who may be smart, peceptive etc. and have every virtue under the sun, but they ain’t magicians, and so they don’t know the facts. While it’s true some magic tricks can be figured out by smart thinking, and I don’t deny it, a great many more can not be retro-engineered in this way. They are constructed, and very well, so as not to be work-outable in this way. I don’t have any say in SDMB policy, but it might be worth considering a policy of not exposing the secrets of legitimate magical entertainers (who don’t claim “it’s real” or that “I have psychic ability”). I respectfully submit that exposing how magic tricks are done is not "fighting ignorance’, it is “spoiling good entertainment” and undoing some very good work by skilled and hard-working entertainers. Now, of course, if a given trickster is misleading people by saying, “It’s not trickery, it’s for real!”, then the ‘fighting ignorance’ cause may be invoked, and the method(s) detailed. I do think it’s worthwhile for the Mods to at least consider this distinction. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/57 "2001-09-06T21:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xanakis \* > **One thing I wondered though was, in regard to the spoon bending, do you think that your technique (whatever that may be) is the same as the technique used by Uri Geller?** No. I think mine’s better! ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/58 "2001-09-06T23:37:26Z")
Re: Wall of China trick. Question 1: Why did he have to have the exact same platform to leave from and to emerge onto? Question 2: Whay was the base of the platform inordinately thick? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/59 "2001-09-07T01:43:12Z")
Tee Hee Hee! TV Time, you sly dog! ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625/60 "2001-09-07T01:49:40Z")
I remember watching the Copperfield TV special about the Niagara Falls thing he did, and saw exactly how he did it the first time I watched. I just thought about all the likely ways he would do it, and one by one, every clue showed itself. Including one huge one that I’m amazed people don’t notice. Then there was one where he made a train carriage disappear, which I was very impressed with, but I’m fairly certain I know how he did that one too. However, in a similar vein, Paul Daniels made an elephant disappear once (“You’ll like this. Not a lot, but you’ll like it”) and I am still stumped by that one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magic/78625.md?page=2)