# Magician wins in chess against experts. How did he do this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100 "2006-06-17T20:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/41 "2006-06-19T11:13:44Z")
> [@mr. jp](#): > > > [@glee](#): > > > > It would be quite a lot for Derren to remember, alongside everything else he was doing. > > Also there were experienced players present, who might recognise the game if it had been played before (it was definitely publishable). > > I don’t think that is so difficult. He only has to remember around four moves. They are placed in a context that helps you remember them. And he can even go back and look. Memorising a game could be done within half an hour. > > Maybe the advisory chess player played a private game with the 9th player on beforehand which they agreed not to make public. And they then used that. > > That said, I think its annoying if this is the trick. If people in his clips can be actors, then its not much fun for me to watch. Sorry, I’ll try to explain better. 🙂 There are eight games in which Derren is just transferring moves. Plus one where we don’t know how he did it. The games varied slightly in length, but I estimate an average of 30 moves (by each player). So each time Derren does a circuit, he has to play 4 moves (which he just ‘learnt’ ) and memorise 4 new moves. He has to do this 60 times! Now an expereinced chess player would find this relatively easy, but it is a feat of memory for anyone else. The ninth game also lasted 30 moves and you are welcome to try memorising one side of a game - it’s not easy! Bear in mind a single mistake means he will lose - because a beginner cannot cope with an international, even some material ahead… I guarantee that at least 8 players were not acting. I don’t know about the 9th. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/42 "2006-06-19T11:28:31Z")
I do not understand this thread. Just watch to the end of the video, and he explains it all. The guy he beats on his own is just some guy from a chess club. Anyone who plays chess regularly could have beaten him. ---
**Author:** ![Jet\_Jaguar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jet_jaguar/32/3562_2.png) [@Jet\_Jaguar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jet_Jaguar)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/43 "2006-06-19T12:50:30Z")
**glee** , can you tell if the magician played like a human against the 9th player? I say that because it’s not necessary for there to be a master feeding him moves, merely an assistant behind the scenes entering the 9th player’s moves into a strong chess program, like Fritz or something, and relaying the computer’s response back to the magician. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/44 "2006-06-19T13:13:01Z")
> [@blinkingblinking](#): > > I do not understand this thread. Just watch to the end of the video, and he explains it all. The guy he beats on his own is just some guy from a chess club. Anyone who plays chess regularly could have beaten him. I think you haven’t read this thread. In short, **Glee’s** professional opinion is that the 9th player was quite good, too good to be beaten by Joe Schmoe regular chess player. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/45 "2006-06-19T14:02:01Z")
The ninth-player question reminds me of a short story I read called _Slippery Elm_, in which a palooka beats a class player with the aid of a master in a closed room passing him messages written on slippery-elm lozenges. It all works like a charm after some confusion in the opening caused by the master writing his moves in Russian. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/46 "2006-06-19T14:50:09Z")
> [@blinkingblinking](#): > > I do not understand this thread. Just watch to the end of the video, and he explains it all. The guy he beats on his own is just some guy from a chess club. Anyone who plays chess regularly could have beaten him. As 1920s Style “Death Ray” said, my opinion is that the 9th player was rated around ELO 1800. (Irritatingly I’ve forgotten his name, but I thi9nk he was the President of a University chess club). To beat an 1800 **for sure** , you need to be rated around 2200. I would guess there are about 150 English players with this rating, out of about 25,000 with a National rating - hardly ‘anyone who plays regularly’! Derren himself does not play chess regularly, so a strong confederate is suspected. > [@Jet Jaguar](#): > > glee, can you tell if the magician played like a human against the 9th player? I say that because it’s not necessary for there to be a master feeding him moves, merely an assistant behind the scenes entering the 9th player’s moves into a strong chess program, like Fritz or something, and relaying the computer’s response back to the magician. Good question. 🙂 I think it was a human: - the opening was nothing special (computers have all the latest opening theory pre-programmed) - ‘Derren’ didn’t take any risks (computers can calculate and play moves that look scary to us carbon-based lifeforms) - I predicted most of 'Derren’s moves (I’m more ‘sympathetic’ to a human style than a computer. Us humans tend to remember previous plans and stick to them regardless. Computers calculate afresh each move.) Whether computer or top player, I still don’t know how they fed the moves to Derren. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100/47 "2006-06-19T18:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether computer or top player, I still don’t know how they fed the moves to Derren. To reiterate, it’s impossible for us to know. The problem is not that it’s too hard, but that it’s too easy. He could have a small earbug. He could have something in his mouth, that he hears through bone conduction. He could have something in his shoes, or under his clothes, that tells him what move to make via a simple code of buzzes and vibrations. He could be watching someone using a code of winks and nose-scratches. Any of these would be undetectable to his audience, so there’s no way to say which it was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magician-wins-in-chess-against-experts-how-did-he-do-this/361100.md?page=2)