# Magnets and iron **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157 "2003-06-02T17:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/21 "2003-06-03T17:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raygirvan \* > I’m interested, though. Those who’ve got it to work: what precisely was the procedure? Let a slow but continuous stream of water run from the faucet. Line yourself up so that you look straight through the stream at some object on the wall of the sink. My sink has a screw holding a grid over an overflow outlet just below the faucet. I sighted on the center of the phillips head screw. Brace yourself in this position with one hand. Be careful not to wobble. With your free hand, bring the magnet close to the stream. You must be careful not to wobble during this part. Watch carefully, and you will see the position of the screwhead change ever so slightly with respect to the stream. The motion is minute, you’ll probably only see it as a change in the distortion of the screwhead. Repeat several times, and be aware of any wobbling. It does move. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/22 "2003-06-03T19:28:53Z")
No luck yet. I tried that setup, and another: a keyring laser blu-tacked to the sink, projecting the shadow of the stream on the far wall of the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/23 "2003-06-04T17:25:37Z")
I’m also wondering about air pressure effects. Moving liquid stream close to an object: would that give reduced air pressure in the gap, tending to draw the stream toward the object? ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/24 "2003-06-04T18:48:49Z")
- - - Somewhat Related-? I have just ordered some high-permeability mu-metal foil (.006" thick, ~$10.50 per square foot) for use in some transformers I am making. It’s a nickel/iron alloy that conducts magnetic flux ~1000 times as well as ordinary steel. Someone on the net told me that if I wanted to play with a piece of the foil and a magnet that I should put the magnet inside a sock first. The reason he gave was that the foil is so thin and sticks so hard that it can be basically impossible to removed. One has to carve little slivers of it off at a time, because the whole thing will not peel off in one piece, and then all the little slivers stick just as hard. I ordered way more than I needed; anybody know any cool science-class-type experiments I can do with a bit of this stuff? It is normally used for magnetic shielding. People also said that it will “jump” onto a strong magnet from quite a ways away, so if it’s really impressive I may post a video of that… ~ ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/25 "2003-06-04T19:07:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DougC \* > [BI have just ordered some high-permeability mu-metal foil (.006" thick, ~$10.50 per square foot) for use in some transformers I am making. It’s a nickel/iron alloy that conducts magnetic flux ~1000 times as well as ordinary steel._\* Ah-ha! This seems to be getting at my follow-up question. It is the 5 to 1 imbalance of the electron shells that makes ordinary iron so magnetic. So what is the electron imbalance of your mu-metal foil? ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/26 "2003-06-04T23:09:49Z")
- - - I have no clue, really. The place I ordered it from has some technical info on it: [http://www.mushield.com/home.html](http://www.mushield.com/home.html) … - I have run across info online that says that instead of being mixed evenly, after annealing the material is bubbles of {several hundred iron atoms each} scattered throughout the nickel. This structure is the key to the high flux transmission, somehow. If you disturb the molecular structure (such as by bending a thick piece of the material, or by heating any thickness hot enough to upset the annealing) the flux conduction drops way down to not much above regular steel. … At any rate, this material is said to have the highest magnetic flux transmission available. ~ ---
**Author:** ![bbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@bbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbeaty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/27 "2003-06-05T00:34:58Z")
It’s not “imbalance” in electron shells. It’s ELECTRON SPIN. In other words, all electrons are actually little bar magnets (or more like tiny electromagnets running by perpetual motion.) Imagine an electron’s spin axes as having little “N” and “S” labels. If something causes a large group of electrons to all line up with their spin axes all pointing in the same direction, then this group of electrons will form an extremely powerful permanent magnet. When the books start talking about imbalanced electron shells, what they really mean is that an even number of neighboring electrons can cancel each other out magnetically. How? Well, hat happens when you let two bar-magnets fall together? They slam together with north poles next to south poles, and on the whole the combination is no longer a magnet (i.e. all the field lines follow circular paths through the two magnets and don’t spew out into space.) Imagine what happens with two horseshoe-magnets with N’s next to S’s. You end up with a ring, with all the field lines going in a loop. The N and S poles cancel out. The same thing happens if you let a bunch of sphere-magnets all fall together in a glob. They cling together strongly, but the overall blob of magnets has no main N or S pole. Electrons behave like this. If you have an odd number of electrons, then there’s one electron left over which does not pair up with a neighbor and get cancelled out magnetically. Now ferromagnetism, that’s just plain weird. As I understand it, the extra electrons (the “magnets”) in each atom all rotate their spin axes so the “N” of one electron is pointing at the “S” of the electron in the next atom over. They form long chains, and at the end of each chain is an extra “N” or “S” with no neighboring electrons to cancel it out. In the space along the chain the magnetic fields are fairly weak. Many parallel chains form, with all of the spins pointing in the same direction. (There are other materials where the opposite happens, where every other chain points backwards, the anti-ferromagnets.) I’ve heard that the distance between atoms controls everything, and if the spacing of the atoms in an iron crystal was very different, then iron would not be ferromagnetic. ALong the same lines, if you can juggle the atomic spacing by adding dopants, you can make the effect stronger or weaker, or make it vanish entirely. Or you can take a nonmagnetic substance and mix it with another non magnetic substance and create a ferromagnetic material. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/28 "2003-06-05T00:39:51Z")
The OP sez: > [@](#): > > When iron combines with oxygen to form rust (ferrous oxide) that substance is not magnetic … Are you sure about this? Won’t rust dust adhere to a magnet? Isn’t/wasn’t basic magnetic audio recording tape made with an iron oxide coating fused to a plastic substrate? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/29 "2003-06-05T01:20:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > **Are you sure about this?** Oh, hell no. I’m not sure about anything I’ve written here. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/30 "2003-06-05T03:41:51Z")
Ferromagnetism is not simple phenomenon as the following post might make clear. If you would like a somewhat simpler explanation do a Google search on _”Ising Model"+ferromagnetism._ > [@](#): > > The simplest details that I know come from the Hartree-Fock theory, which is the zeroth-order many-body theory of electrons in solids (or atoms). Here’s how one derives the Hartree-Fock equations for the electron energies: First, form a wavefunction called a Slater determinant which guarantees that the Exclusion Principle will be satisfied (by taking linear combinations of single-particle states which change sign when particles are exchanged). Next, take the \ product to evaluate the energies, where H, the Hamiltonian, involves kinetic and Coulomb potential energies. Because of the form of the Slater determinant, there are TWO types of terms with coefficient e^^2, where e is the electronic charge. One is the simple repulsion of an individual electron to all the others. The other term is called the exchange energy because it involves an integral over products like (a\_up b\_down – b\_up a\_down), > where a and b are single-particle wavefunctions and up, down refer to spin direction. This exchange energy is the fundamental origin of the itinerant electron ferromagnetism of transition metals like Fe, Ni, Co. It is not a concocted toy model like the Ising model; it comes from fundamental QM. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/31 "2003-06-05T10:51:59Z")
_Isn’t/wasn’t basic magnetic audio recording tape made with an iron oxide coating fused to a plastic substrate?_ There are different oxides of iron: the one used in magnetic media is Fe3O4 - a.k.a. magnetite - which is ferromagnetic. Fe2O3 and FeO aren’t (rust, I think, is generally hydrated FeO). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/32 "2003-06-05T13:31:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ring \* > **The simplest details that I know come from the Hartree-Fock theory, which is the zeroth-order many-body theory of electrons in solids (or atoms). Here’s how one derives the Hartree-Fock equations for the electron energies: First, form a wavefunction called a Slater determinant which guarantees that the Exclusion Principle will be satisfied (by taking linear combinations of single-particle states which change sign when particles are exchanged). Next, take the \ product to evaluate the energies, where H, the Hamiltonian, involves kinetic and Coulomb potential energies. Because of the form of the Slater determinant, there are TWO types of terms with coefficient e^^2, where e is the electronic charge. One is the simple repulsion of an individual electron to all the others. The other term is called the exchange energy because it involves an integral over products like (a\_up b\_down – b\_up a\_down), > where a and b are single-particle wavefunctions and up, down refer to spin direction. This exchange energy is the fundamental origin of the itinerant electron ferromagnetism of transition metals like Fe, Ni, Co. It is not a concocted toy model like the Ising model; it comes from fundamental QM.** :eek: Well, I did ask for it, didn’t I? Are you sure this isn’t from [Chomsky-bot](http://language.home.sprynet.com/lingdex/chombot.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![alimarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@alimarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alimarx)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/33 "2003-06-05T17:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alimarx \* > \*\*A regular fridge magnet will attract a slow, steady stream of water coming out of the tap. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raygirvan \* > \*\*I’m also wondering about air pressure effects. Moving liquid stream close to an object: would that give reduced air pressure in the gap, tending to draw the stream toward the object? \*\* In my OP, I was recalling an experiment I read about as a child, and performed subsequently many times (life of the party, I am), most recently 2 years ago. After reading through this tread, I figured I’d try it again being a little more empirical about it. Well, wouldn’t ya know, dad burn it, it doesn’t work now; magnet, fingertip, Barbie doll head, the stream wouldn’t budge. This is the first time I’ve tried this in my current residence. Maybe the mineral content, or lack thereof, has something to do with it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/34 "2003-06-06T11:27:33Z")
If you want to see it working, use a plastic ballpoint pen or comb: rub it on your sleeve (preferably wool or synthetic fibre) to charge it up with static. Then it’ll bend the stream easily. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/35 "2003-06-09T17:35:12Z")
- - -Isn’t that static electricuty? I have done that with a balloon… … - Anyway, the mu-metal arrived today. I am fairly underwhelmed. A magnet sticks to it about as well as any other steel object, maybe even a bit less than other steel objects. It came with an MSDS sheet saying it is what I paid (well) for. I don’t have any regular steel .006 foil to compare, but magnets stick harder to the refridgerator, for instance… \<:/ ~ ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157/36 "2003-06-09T20:33:30Z")
- - - ?? Hmmm… … - I attempted to test it the only way I could thinkof with what I had on hand: by seeing how well the roll would shield the effects of a speaker magnet from my computer monitor, compared to a piece of ordinary 1/16" 4130 steel I had around. The magnet is a typical center-pole concentrated type with the iron concentrators still attached, the ceramic element is maybe 3/8" thick and 2’ across. The mu-metal is on a large cardboard roll about 10-inches dia and 15 inches wide, wrapped around about 4.75 times. The steel is a sheet perhaps seven inches by twenty inches, and 1/16" thick. The result of subjective testing was that when either the steel or the mu-foil was placed directly up against the monitor with the mangnet on the other side, _both_ shielded the monitor from the effects of the magnet completely… ??? - [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/magnets-and-iron/179157.md?page=1)