# Maher says USA Democracy is in its death bed. How concerned are you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615 "2022-11-09T00:10:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/101 "2022-11-10T18:50:09Z")
That’s pretty creative but “you cut, I choose” is better. It’s sometimes referred to as “fair gerrymandering.” But we can do way better with the FRA (which, unusually, might have favored the GOP this time). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/102 "2022-11-10T19:06:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > it seems to me that Americans automatically reject the idea that someone can be non-partisan, or at least are highly sceptical of it. That’s a misreading and misrepresentation. I do not automatically reject the idea that someone can be non-partisan, there are plenty. What I question is whether labelling a position as non-partisan means that it will be automatically filled by someone non-partisan. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > composed of a superior court judge and one person nominated by the party in power, the third by the official opposition. So, two are nominated by the party in power, and one is nominated by the party not in power, that’s relatively similar to such systems set up in the US. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The idea that the partisan chair of a presidential candidate’s election committee could be the state official who certifies the votes (Florida 2000), or be the one who certifies their own election (Kemp, 2018) is just mind-boggling to me. Yeah, it does make it more obvious where someone’s loyalties lie. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Parties can appoint scrutineers who watch the votes being cast and the counting, but that’s the only partisan role. No elected official is involved in counting or certifying the votes. Technically, that’s how it works here as well. It’s only very recently that the Secretaries of State have decided that they may look into certifying votes on a partisan basis, and it hasn’t actually happened yet. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Unless and until there is a change in the American political hyper-partisan atmosphere, it is hard to see how a neutral, non-partisan election administration could be established, unlike in Canada or the UK. I don’t know that’s going to change soon. But I also don’t know that the systems in Canada or UK will remain free from partisanship. Whoever appoints these people to the commissions has an incentive to pick people who will draw it in their favor. As long as people are in charge, they will find ways of gaming the system. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The algorithm used has to be considered a neutral one. In Canada, the requirements for the map are set out in the statute which governs the particular commission. But is there any requirement for the delegation to match the voters? It would be trivial to take a state that leans 55-45, and, using neutral criteria, come up with a map that is 100% the dominant party. If you are not actually considering where people live and balancing districts, you are going to more often than not have an unbalanced delegation. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > note that judges in our system are not elected and are non-partisan. Our judges are labeled as non-partisan positions as well. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/103 "2022-11-10T19:08:35Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > That’s pretty creative but “you cut, I choose” is better. How would that work? The people who are doing the “choosing” are the voters, and how those voters are distributed is done by the people doing the cutting. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/104 "2022-11-10T19:17:43Z")
Heh. They’re just tools, man. What you do with 'em is up to you! ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/105 "2022-11-10T19:31:09Z")
I don’t think I understand your question. I might be assuming incorrectly that everyone is familiar with the “you cut, I choose” districting method. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/106 "2022-11-10T19:39:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Our judges are labeled as non-partisan positions as well. However, most of them are endorsed by a party. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/107 "2022-11-10T19:43:59Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I might be assuming incorrectly that everyone is familiar with the “you cut, I choose” districting method. I guess so. It’s not a method that any state actually uses and has only a very few articles about it. I would have assumed that no one had heard about it, and given a link and brief description. The method for laying our congressional districts does end up being a _bit_ more complicated than cutting a birthday cake. Anyway, I think the process would be extremely expensive and drawn out, and that it certainly has a flaw that there is no way to create majority minority districts, which means minorities are likely to have little or no representation in congress. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/108 "2022-11-10T19:47:26Z")
This is true. But they are still considered to be non-partisan. Sometimes they even are. The point was that I don’t trust that someone is non-partisan just because the position that they are given is considered to be non-partisan. And just because a judge is appointed by the government rather than elected by the people doesn’t make them non-partisan either. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/109 "2022-11-10T20:50:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Who establishes it, who picks the three “independent and non-partisan” people, and how do they determine that they are non-partisan? > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > This ensures that each MLA represents a similar number of people. > > It’s not the same number of people that’s the problem. That’s easy. It’s manipulating which districts those people are in in order to secure electoral advantage that is. > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > The Legislative Assembly reviews the commission’s proposals and votes to approve them, reject them, or approve them with alterations. > > So a partisan legislature could adopt a partisanly drawn map, or they could reject a non-partisanly drawn map. > > It still leaves too much in the hands of people who may have motivations to not create a balanced delegation. Who establishes it, who picks the three “independent and non-partisan” people, and how do they determine that they are non-partisan? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This ensures that each MLA represents a similar number of people. It’s not the same number of people that’s the problem. That’s easy. It’s manipulating which districts those people are in in order to secure electoral advantage that is. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The Legislative Assembly reviews the commission’s proposals and votes to approve them, reject them, or approve them with alterations. Under the _Electoral Boundaries Commission Act_, the Lieutenant Governor in Council must appoint the BC electoral Boundaries Commission consisting of: - **A judge or retired judge** of the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal who is **nominated by the Lieutenant Governor in Council** - **A person** who is not a member of the Legislative Assembly **or an employee** of the government and who is **nominated by the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly** , after consultation with the Premier and the Leader of the Official Opposition, and - **The Chief Electoral Officer** appointed under the _[Elections Act](https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96106_00)_. These folks are pretty competent, and definitely non partisan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/110 "2022-11-10T21:20:45Z")
Interesting quoting there. Anyway, I guess if you are confident that the people appointing these positions can never be swayed by partisanship, then I guess that makes you confident that the people in charge of distracting could never be swayed by partisanship. Maybe Canadians are just better, but I don’t trust people that much. If there’s a way to game the system, someone will do so. And I don’t see anything that prevents the party in charge from gaming the system. Then there’s the other question as to what goal they have in drawing districts. You have indicated that it is simply to ensure that each district has a similar number of people. We have that already. Is there any sort of mandate to this commission to get a delegation that is reflective of the voters? I mean, I think the criteria should be relatively easy. You take the number of voters for one party vs another party, and the delegation sent to Washington should be as close to that percentage as possible. At that point, it doesn’t really matter how you rearrange the chairs, the goal has been accomplished. If that’s not the criteria used, then how does the redistricting commission choose what map is best? Do they ever send delegations that are _not_ reflective of the voters? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/111 "2022-11-10T21:31:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > note that judges in our system are not elected and are non-partisan. > > Our judges are labeled as non-partisan positions as well. There is a vast difference between being non-partisan and being “labeled” non-partisan. A few spectacular cites off the top of my head: Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Aileen “Loose” Cannon. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/112 "2022-11-10T21:42:37Z")
Yes, that is exactly the point I am making. Saying that a judge is non-partisan isn’t the same as if the judge actually _is_ non-partisan. Are we claiming here that Canada has _never_ had a judge who had any form of political bias? If so, great, that means that Canadians are just better people than the rest of us, incapable of corruption, because it’s not the words someone wrote down on a piece of paper that prevents that. If not, then doesn’t that also mean that any position regarded as “non-partisan” could have a partisan individual appointed to it? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/113 "2022-11-10T21:50:10Z")
The point that @Northern_Piper is making is that political partisanship in the judiciary is much, much less of a problem in Canada than it is in the US. For example, the appointment of justices to the Supreme Court of Canada is routinely a non-controversial non-event, and I couldn’t tell you the political leanings of a single one of the justices, nor can I think of any ruling that seemed ideologically motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/114 "2022-11-10T22:40:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Maybe Canadians are just better, but I don’t trust people that much. If there’s a way to game the system, someone will do so. And I don’t see anything that prevents the party in charge from gaming the system. A couple of other features is mandatory transparency, and advertised public meetings for input. If there was ANY hint of partisanship at any stage, the shit would hit the fan, bigly. They don’t just announce the new riding areas - there is literally a year of public input first. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/115 "2022-11-10T23:52:54Z")
We really can’t solve our representation problems as long as we continue to have single member districts and first past the post elections. Also, the House needs to be expanded in size by a substantial amount. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/116 "2022-11-11T00:16:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Maher is correct. We got lucky in 2020 that the coup attempt failed. The chances of getting lucky another time are a lot lower. Cite. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/117 "2022-11-11T00:28:17Z")
If its not too much bother can you guys send a small expeditionary force to take us over and make us a vassal state? You’ll be greeted with flowers and open arms as liberators I promise (well at least by me you will). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/118 "2022-11-11T00:35:39Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If its not too much bother can you guys send a small expeditionary force to take us over and make us a vassal state? You’ll be greeted with flowers and open arms as liberators I promise (well at least by me you will).   Ditch the monarch, first. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/119 "2022-11-11T14:30:01Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > We really can’t solve our representation problems as long as we continue to have single member districts and first past the post elections. Yeah, but unfortunately, it’d require a pretty substantial change to the constitution to get that. > [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Also, the House needs to be expanded in size by a substantial amount. Agreed, and at least that doesn’t require any changes to the constitution, just an act of congress. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615/120 "2022-11-11T15:10:46Z")
Nick Fuentes (a Christian White Nationalist) called for a dictatorship stating that “We need a dictatorship. We need to take control of the government. We need to force people to believe what we believe.” And before somebody says “Yeah, but he’s just some fringe extremist” that several elected Republicans (MTG, Boebert, and others) have spoken at his conventions. And yes, they are also idiot extremists … that just won re-election. Bill Maher is a doofus, but he’s not wrong this time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maher-says-usa-democracy-is-in-its-death-bed-how-concerned-are-you/974615.md?page=7)