I don’t ever recall Ahmedinenjad ever saying anything against Jews or Judaism per se, Israel yes. So even if it were true, I don’t know why he would have anything to be ashamed about. Not a crime being of Jewish extraction is it.
That really galls me. I’ve recently learned from dopers that converting to Christ will nullify an ethnic Jew from being a Jew. Its not fair.
Converting to Christianity involves worshipping a false God. Islam does not.
To the OP, opposition to Israel – even hatred of Israel – does not necessarily equate to racial antisemitism. It’s a political conflict, not a racial or religious one.
Not correct, as far as I know. I mentioned Islam because it was relevant to this thread, but so far as I know the attitude to conversions to Christianity is the same; a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew who does not observe the Law, not a former Jew. Same goes for a Jew who converts to any other religion, or who renounces all religious faith and practice.
Of course, there can be gradations of “not observing the Law”. Conversion to Christianity may be accompanied by much graver dietary infringements than would flow from converting to Islam, for example. Furthermore - Jewish dopers, please feel free to clarify or correct - there is a view in Judaism that Christianity involves beliefs which are at least marginally polytheistic (the Trinity) and idolatrous (the Incarnation), and polytheism and idolatry are particularly big no-noes under the Law. Islam does not present these problems. So conversion to Christianity may be a more profound rejection of the Law than conversion to Islam. But neither of them involves ceasing to be a Jew. Quite simply, you cannot cease to be a Jew.
Under Israeli law, any Jews who convert to another religion have put themselves outside Judaism and are no longer permitted the Right of Return.
Wow, that’s… oddly specific.
Interesting.
That seems to produce an odd result. A Jew who converts to some other religion and raises their children in that religion cannot immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return - but the children can, since they are either
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Jewish, if their mother was Jewish, and have never converted (not having been raised in the Jewish faith in the first place), or
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the children of a Jew, if their father was.
I suggest, though, that this has more to do with Israeli law than it does with Jewish identity. I think someone exluded from the Law of Return for having converted would still be seen as Jewish by the religious authorities; he would jsut be a Jew who (a) does not keep the Law and (b) does not benefit from the Law of Return.
I presume that the Law of Return wouldn’t distinguish between a Jew who converted to Islam and a Jew who converted to Christianity.
I also wonder whether a Jew who repudiated Jewish religiousl belief and practice but didn’t identify with another religious denomination - e.g. became an atheist or a not-easily-classified new age beleiver in the supernatural - would be regarded as having “converted from Judaism” for these purposes. (And, if not, why not?)
The “expert on Iranian Jews”, David Yeroshalmi, only denies that the name Ahmadinejad’s father jettisoned meant “Jewish prayer shawl” or was a name solely used by Jewish families. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a common Jewish name, and it doesn’t “refute” the original article. You’ve also got to be careful about some of the other sources in that Guardian article - for instance Ahmadinejad’s Iranian biographers, who have met his whole family? They could be independent, but if they’re on his side it’s not going to be a surprise that they deny he’s Jewish.
They most certainly would not. Just because someone has no interest in religion, that doesn’t mean they aren’t Jewish. A person’s beliefs are irrelevant - only actions count. And since Israel was founded by non-observant Jews (atheists, agnostics and believers who aren’t interested in ceremonies), it would hardly be right right to turn them away.
Now, someone who actually converts is actively swearing allegiance to another people. If he decides he wants no part in the Jewish People, the Jewish People want no part in him.
Yes it is.
In commentary, this Noahide rule is extended to: No cruelty to animals.
I’ve decided that almost everybody is a little bit Jewish and a little bit gay, and that acknowledging this is the secret to a happy life.
Harvey Fierstein must be ecstatic.
He’s not a little anything.
what ran trough my mind was the punchline, “Shoot, man. You don’t eat a pig like that all at once!”
I’m so going to hell.
He’s not even a little dictator. People seem to forget that.
Pretty much what I expected.
But isn’t there a certain tension between saying “a person’s beliefs are irrelevant” and “someone who actually converts is actively swearing allegiance to another people”?
Although Judaism does link religion and national identity very closely, few other religions take the view that adopting the religion involves “swearing allegiance” to any particular people. And if somebody embraces Buddhism or Christianity, for example, they can be presumed to have Buddhist or Christian beliefs, and therefore a Buddhist or Christian understanding of the significance of their conversion. And if they don’t consider themselves to be “swearing allegiance” to the Buddhist people or the Christian people then, quite simply, they aren’t… It might be that rejecting the Jewish religion involves a repudiation of allegiance to the Jewish people, but if that were so then the convert-to-Atheism and the convert-to-Christianity would be equally stigmatised, which is not what happens.
It seems to me that what is at work here is not the significance for converts of their conversion, but the significance which other Jews attribute to their conversion. And this in turn may be based on a (misplaced, and probably unexamined) assumption that adherence to any religion has the same significance for national identity as adherence to Judaism does.
Both the convert-to-Christianity and the convert-to-atheism are repudiating Jewish religious belief and practice, but Jews take a dimmer view of the repudiation by the convert-to-Christianity. And I can’t help feeling that this may have a good deal to do with the anti-Semitism so often displayed in the past by Christianity (and the historic fact that most Jews who have converted out, have converted to Christianity).
Okay, straight up, Mahmoud Ahmedinejad is not Jewish and has no Jewish heritage. He never claimed such, and no close relatives claimed such. The Telegraph posted a retraction of their claim a few days after their initial article. Apparently the surname his father changed wasn’t a Jewish surname anyway.
There are several things going on about Jewish or not Jewish:
[ul]
[li]First, there’s the claim made by Judaism itself: If you are Jewish, you are still Jewish even if you convert. Almost all religions make such a claim. You can convert to the religion, but you can’t leave.[/li][li]There’s the personal aspect: I was Religion “X”, and I officially converted to Religion “Y”. As far as I am personally concerned, I am now Religion “Y” no matter what Religion “X” says.[/li][li]There’s an ethnic definition which pretty much matches a type of ethnicity of Eastern European Jews. My wife, for example, is of Middle Eastern origin, and to her a bagel is what we would call a pretzel. She also doesn’t speak Yiddishisms, and hates Jon Stewart’s sense of humor. She is religiously Jewish and by Jewish law is Jewish, but many people wouldn’t be considered ethnically Jewish.[/li]
Someone could be ethnically Jewish because their dad (but not their mom) was Jewish and grew up in a Jewish household. They may eat bagels, say “oy vey”, ask for a schmere of cream cheese on his bagel, but is a member of the Episcopalian Church where he met his wife. He isn’t Jewish by religion, nor even by Jewish law, but he probably feels Jewish.
This is the hardest one because it puts being Jewish almost on the level of race, and we would prefer to think of Judaism strictly as a religion. However, ethnicity is defined by a common heritage and outlook. Jews in Eastern Europe were ghettoized and segregated from main stream society that they created their own culture.
[li]Finally, there’s the legal aspect of it: In Israel, there is something called the Law of Return that applies to Jews. If you fall within the legal definition of being Jewish according to the Law of Return, you can claim immediate citizenship in Israel. Much the same way an ethnic German can claim immediate citizenship to Germany or an ethnic Russian can claim immediate citizenship to Russia.[/li]
The important part is that this is a legal definition and not a religious definition. There are several instances where the legal definition for the Law of Return doesn’t match the religious definition whether someone is actually Jewish or not.
[/ul]
We need to clarify which way we are referring to someone being Jewish when we talk about this issue. Otherwise, we end up talking around each other.
And to reemphasize the point, Ahmedinejad is not Jewish by any of those four criteria.