# Main Cause Of Wars: Religion Or Good For Economy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129 "2003-09-27T06:32:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/1 "2003-09-27T06:32:14Z")
Do you think most wars can be defined as having a basis in religious differences, or are they based on economic needs? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/2 "2003-09-27T07:10:40Z")
Wars are started for a variety of reasons. Some religious, some for political conquest, some for plunder, and lots of other reasons. And yes, there probably are some wars waged for economic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/3 "2003-09-27T07:10:54Z")
yes ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/4 "2003-09-27T07:12:52Z")
oops. sorry about the simulpost. ---
**Author:** ![Eli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Eli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eli)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/5 "2003-09-27T08:09:43Z")
I think economy tended(and tends) to play a much bigger role than ideological and religious considerations. Most leaders throughout history were more or less normal, sane people, not fanatics. And normal people tend to bend their principles when the situation really demands it. But exceptions are plentiful of course. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/6 "2003-09-27T08:19:09Z")
Firstly you need to define a war. If you just mean an organised skirmish between armed men, then most wars were economic. Of course they were also founght with stone spears during the first 80, 000 years or so of our history. Primitive peoples tended to have very similar religions to their neighbours, and religious conflict would have been rare. However fighting over resources including food, water and women would have been common place. If we assume even 100 tribal skirmishes per year planetwide prior to 10, 000 BC that’s 10 million wars fought for economic reasons. It would take a lot of religious wars after that date to compete. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/7 "2003-09-27T08:25:30Z")
Neither. Testosterone. No cite. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/8 "2003-09-27T10:06:40Z")
Neither. Fun. Wars are here because we’re humans and killing our fellow man is great fun. I hate to lay it out like that, but that’s roughly how I see it, at least one of the main reasons of war. Of course once things start to heat up, it turns out things are not quite so fun afterall. Also I was bored so I just saw a war movie on the telly with lots of jolly Germans being blown to smithereens. Nothing like a bit of killing to kill a bit of time. If we didn’t think it was so exhilarating explain all the war movies to me, the war books, music (incidentally I’m listening to Barry Lyndon: British Grenadiers as I type), military gear, etc. War saturates our culture because well because it’s just great fun. I think religion very seldom plays a major role, except as a front. If it weren’t for religion we would have to think up some other pretext. Also I can’t see much of a religions element in any of the wonderful wars of the 20 century. And if examined closer the historical religious war (The Crusades etc.) were anything but religiously based. Other reasons for war: plunder, tribal and national clashes, boredom, economical protection and expansion, plain misunderstandings, and oestrogen (no cite). - Rune ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/9 "2003-09-27T11:31:27Z")
I would propose that one big cause for wars is that leaders, who tend to be somewhat Machiavellian, are aware that going to war can help consolidate their power. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/10 "2003-09-27T11:34:54Z")
I think it’s dangerous and naive to over-simplify and pigeonhole, especially when the cliché predates both the decline of old-style fervent religion and the rise of new religions, especially US-style capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/11 "2003-09-27T15:23:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > \*\*Neither. > > Fun. > > Wars are here because we’re humans and killing our fellow man is great fun. I hate to lay it out like that, but that’s roughly how I see it, at least one of the main reasons of war. Of course once things start to heat up, it turns out things are not quite so fun afterall. > > Also I was bored so I just saw a war movie on the telly with lots of jolly Germans being blown to smithereens. Nothing like a bit of killing to kill a bit of time. If we didn’t think it was so exhilarating explain all the war movies to me, the war books, music (incidentally I’m listening to Barry Lyndon: British Grenadiers as I type), military gear, etc. War saturates our culture because well because it’s just great fun.- Rune \*\* There’s a difference between fiction and reality. Just because people like to read about fake wars, or watch them on TV or at the movies doesn’t mean that they want to fight any real ones. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/12 "2003-09-27T18:04:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*There’s a difference between fiction and reality. Just because people like to read about fake wars, or watch them on TV or at the movies doesn’t mean that they want to fight any real ones. \*\* Not necessarily but highly likely. I have a hard time thinking of a reason something would be this massively popular in fiction if not because it’s something that’s also popular in reality. Besides sex (also quite popular in reality) there is nothing we find so intensely interesting as violence and in particular war, nothing that sells so good (love is further down the list). I think it’s a very big indication that it is a thing we just can’t live without, something we find very satisfying. Anyway it’s more that just fake wars. First off, the more realistic, brutal and in-your-face detailed the movie / game / etc is depicted the more we find it fulfilling (Saving Private Ryan (first five minutes)) – like the fake part is something we can live with but would rather do without. Second coffee table books with authentic pictures from WWII / Vietnam etc. as well as real footage from various wars are quite popular. War history books seem also to be very popular, judging on the Amazon top-20. I’ve gobbled up many a historic illustration on The Discovery Channel with lots interviews and authentic material. War-porn for the masses. And then there’s the aspect of our natural aggression, which would more or less make war unavoidable. If not used for war our war like tendencies find other ways to express themselves. I’ve been told war time Berlin under Hitler’s caring hand was a remarkable peaceful place to live crime-wise. All aggression spend in the wars. And I think it goes deeper than mere cultural teaching. Which the frequency of childrens’ war games attest. Some child care institutions at one time experimented with banning play weapons, but the kids (the boys) would just pick up any old branch use it as sword or gun, recreating WWII or practicing WWIII on every occasion. The temptation too great even were it strictly vorboten. Also the popularity of war games for grown ups are fairly telling I think. The thrill is simply too exhilarating. I remember reading a piece of Anthony Burgess on how life ought to be mostly boring and bland. Hitler Jugen had fun, staying up all night jumping over fires, singing songs, marching in the streets, running down Jews. The Wehrmact recruits had fund shooting guns, driving panzer, marching in the streets, running down the Polacks. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/13 "2003-09-27T20:44:52Z")
> [@](#): > > **Joel** : There’s a difference between fiction and reality. Just because people like to read about fake wars, or watch them on TV or at the movies doesn’t mean that they want to fight any real ones. There is still another group (of young men, mostly) who _think_ that they want to fight real wars. I saw this in many of my students. I didn’t see it in anyone returning from Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Blue\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/14 "2003-09-27T20:54:10Z")
I think economics is usually the biggest factor, now much more so than religion. Relgion, I think in the past, was the main excuse for war but invariable it boils down to economics in one form or another. ---
**Author:** ![IEatFood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@IEatFood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IEatFood)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/15 "2003-09-27T20:55:59Z")
Hmmm. . . My vote is for economic reasons. Sort of. Much in the same way that is more economic feasible to steal your neighbor’s Siamese cat than to lay down the half-grand or so to purchase it. War, for the most part, is nothing more than theivery _writ large_. There are some exceptions, like civil war, or the prevention of certain elements from attaining or maintaining possesion of NBC weapons. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/16 "2003-09-28T17:05:53Z")
Wars have and will be started due to less than honorable or noble causes because those who decide to start the war will not be the ones dying in it. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/17 "2003-09-28T17:50:35Z")
“Cry Havoc” That is what a war is about, sheer unadulterated havoc. Mankind by his very nature is an aggresive animal, he sees something, he wants it by fair means or foul, and if it means killing his fellow man to get it then by God he’ll do just that. Don’t get me wrong, I am not an advocate of war but I do understand mankind and that includes myself who I understand obviously more than any other. I am only human but I assure you that given open licence to take by force that which is not mine I would be very tempted to give in, I like to think that I could resist this temptation but I am none to sure I could and if you all ask yourselves I’m reasonably certain that you also would find it hard to resist. Remember I said OPEN LICENCE before you batter me to bits with morality. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/18 "2003-09-28T20:52:57Z")
Economics define what we want. Religion(Culture) defines the seperation between the two “teams” and who gets to have the economic prize. Testosterone/Estrogen are hormones that both males and females have in differing quantities, so while it is impossible to eliminate them as a factor as they merely exist, I think it is difficult to tell the causality inherent in the chemicals. When I was a small child my mother locked me in the bedroom for hours on end and my step-mother dragged me around by the hair. My father did neither of these things, he did little but endorse this behavior in his two wives. So in my subjective experience, I’ve seen violence perpetrated more often by women in the initial stages than by men. Of course, I don’t know exactly what violence was perpetrated upon my mothers by men prior to me. In short, if women were unilaterally against war, I doubt there would be war. Please do not confuse this as blaming women for war. I believe that if men were unilaterally against war, there probably wouldn’t be war either. There is no fairer sex, there is no sex that is more or less predatory than another. You’re going to have to delve deeper into conciousness to find the roots, than mere gender. Erek ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/19 "2003-09-28T21:36:38Z")
Assuming this is a poll, I’ll vote for economic/political reasons, with religion being most often used as a convenient excuse. It’s easier to tell your troops they’re risking their lives for a sacred cause than to tell them they’re risking their lives for cheap oil. ---
**Author:** ![rklewis2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba8739/32.png) [@rklewis2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rklewis2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129/20 "2003-09-29T11:17:23Z")
Depends on where you are. For the most part, it always boils down to money in the end. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/main-cause-of-wars-religion-or-good-for-economy/204129.md?page=2)