# Mainstream movies with gay main characters: how hard could it be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493 "2007-10-29T20:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/81 "2007-10-30T21:34:23Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] If you’re asking why there aren’t more movies with gay characters as the main focus, but the movie isn’t about gayness, consider that it was hard enough having gay main characters in mainstream films. Why would you fight hard for that and then not have that be at the center of what’s going on? [/QUOTE] First we fight to simply be acknowledged. Then we fight to be acknowledged but not in a stereotypical patronizing way, then finally we win when we get to simply be there, without it raising eyebrows or causing straight men to run out of the theater. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/82 "2007-10-30T23:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] Ellen Degeneres watched her sitcom disappear when she came out and it took a long time before she could come back. [/quote] IIRC, Ellen’s sitcom was already on the ropes before she came out, and likely would have been cancelled even sooner if not for the novelty of her sexuality. > [@](#): > > However, how many times have we heard of an actor dredging up some traumatic memory to help them in an emotional scene? What does a straight actor call up to give the proper emotional “zing” in a scene where they have to perform a non-straight kiss (or more)? I’m going to go out on a limb, here, and suggest, “The memory of kissing a woman.” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/83 "2007-10-30T23:11:07Z")
What about “Touch of Pink”? Okay, the movie is about the main character struggling to get his mother to accept who he is (a gay man). But it’s not just about that–he’s also a gay Muslim man, who doesn’t want to marry another Muslim woman. (Also, he’s got an imaginary friend who’s the spirit of Cary Grant, played by Kyle Machlachlan.) So while homosexuality is an issue, it seems like it’s more about family, love, breaking away, learning to accept one another. All that good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/84 "2007-10-30T23:31:28Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Oh, don’t worry about it. You got all the right letters. I’m not a big fan of the LGBT abbreviation anyway. Doesn’t roll off the tongue like a good acronym should. [/QUOTE] How about Legabit? Or Legabiter? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/85 "2007-10-30T23:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] IIRC, Ellen’s sitcom was already on the ropes before she came out, and likely would have been cancelled even sooner if not for the novelty of her sexuality. [/QUOTE] Agreed, and some of the episodes after she came out were just dumb television. But her coming out episode was probably one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/86 "2007-10-31T00:18:15Z")
Um, **Alexander**? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/87 "2007-10-31T00:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=Septima] Um, **Alexander**? [/QUOTE] Colin Farrell dressed like Cindy Brady? No thanks. You can keep that one. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/88 "2007-10-31T01:37:59Z")
[QUOTE=ZipperJJ] I think it comes down to gay being more “offensive” than black. It doesn’t really matter to people anymore what color a lead is. A black lead might bring in a couple more folks to see the movie - people who want to support black actors or something - but I don’t think these days it would deter anyone. [/QUOTE] Since Hollywood is now a global sales machine, I feel compelled to mention that here in China, racial prejudice against blacks is alive and thriving. I’ve known many people that think that blacks are just “ugly”, with some also mentioning the following gems: “poor”, “dirty”, “stupid,” and “violent”. A black action lead is fine (since that caters to black people’s strengths), but a black romantic male lead will definitely have far fewer Chinese girls swooning over him, and far fewer folks willing to shell out cash to see him in the theater. Although it is true that gayness is still a much bigger turn-off here than blackness. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/89 "2007-10-31T03:40:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] So the trick is to come up with a **mainstream movie** that also has a gay main character or two — preferably as something more substantial than the comedy-relief hairdresser! — which straight audiences will shell out money for. [/QUOTE] How about a biopic about somebody who was gay, but who was much more famous for something else? E.g., Alan Turing, or Plato, or Richard the Lion-Hearted\*, or pick your own favorite from [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gay%2C_lesbian_or_bisexual_people) \*Already been done, actually – see [_The Lion in Winter._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lion_in_winter) ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/90 "2007-10-31T03:42:14Z")
Richard the Lion Hearted was gay? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/91 "2007-10-31T03:44:14Z")
BTW, **Fish,** do you not consider [_Gods and Monsters_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_and_monsters) a “mainstream movie”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/92 "2007-10-31T03:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] Richard the Lion Hearted was gay? Seriously? [/QUOTE] Well, probably; [historians are divided in their opinions.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I#Richard.27s_marriage) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/93 "2007-10-31T05:06:01Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] And let me add, **DrDeth** , that I spoke of Hollywood _after_ _Brokeback Mountain_, and your counterexample was… excuse me, 38 years ago? Please read the whole thread. [/QUOTE] And there’s been a dozen other examples. So your premise is wrong. And \*\*Otto \*\* is right. Read reviews of the film. Sure, the point is debated as the filmaker wanted to be subtle. Still, that’s the read most reviewers seem to have got from the film. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/94 "2007-10-31T05:38:28Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] Richard the Lion Hearted was gay? Seriously? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Well, probably; [historians are divided in their opinions.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I#Richard.27s_marriage) [/QUOTE] Much to the Church’s distress, casual bisexuality was very common among the male Norman upper-class in this period. The sons of nobility usually moved in bachelor herds of similar age cohorts in their teens and twenties ( _juvenes_ ) and also tended to marry late. For example Henry I may have been an exception among his brothers, if only because of his incessant impregnating of women ( he sired at least 35 bastards ) would hardly have left him much time for men ;). In that regard it wouldn’t be that extraordinary. At any rate the evidence is highly equivocal in Richard’s case, as noted in part in that wikipedia article. In addition to the Sodom comment, one of the most common pieces of evidence was the chronicle mentioning him ‘sharing a bed’ with Philip Augustus in 1187. But like a similar note that declared that Philip was dismayed to see Richard ‘hand in hand’ with the counts of Boulogne and Flanders some years later, this has most often been interpreted as implying political alliances, not sexual ones. Could’ve been both of course - we just don’t know. His granduncle William II Rufus on the other hand, probably was gay ( or certainly bisexual, anyway ) :). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/95 "2007-10-31T06:24:29Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Because the Ts (transgender/transsexual, a distinction I don’t claim to understand) [/quote] Here is the difference: Transsexual has a clearly-defined, straightforward meaning and criteria. Transgender is an extremely nebulous term which has been stretched to form an umbrella concept to cover several disparate groups (one of which is transsexual). It gets a bit more confusing since nowadays in colloquial language TG tends to replace TS altogether. Maybe people are still squeamish about saying the word “sex” and prefer substitute words. > [@](#): > > aren’t by definition not heterosexual. Thank you. There often seems to be a casual assumption that trans is a subset of gay… as in many of the examples suggested in this thread like _The Crying Game_ and _Boys Don’t Cry_ which do not even have any gay characters, just trans. Neither is a subset of the other-- they’re two different and distinct phenomena, albeit they’re often considered in tandem. Trans refers to gender identity, which is about who you are. Gay refers to sexual identity, i.e. who you want to date. Trans people can be of any sexual identity or even none at all. When “gay” subsumes all the different queer identities into itself, they become invisible, their existence being colonized. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/96 "2007-10-31T07:26:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] BTW, **Fish,** do you not consider [_Gods and Monsters_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_and_monsters) a “mainstream movie”? [/QUOTE] First of all, “Gods and Monsters” was from 1998, so it doesn’t qualify as “after _Brokeback Mountain_.” Second of all, I never said there weren’t mainstream movies made with gay characters — I said that the 1.1% of characters falls short of reflecting the true percentage of gay people in America. There are gay characters, but there are not _enough_ of them, and mostly not in lead roles. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/97 "2007-10-31T07:29:47Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] And there’s been a dozen other examples. So your premise is wrong. [/quote] My premise is wrong? Show me. My premises were: 1. There are not enough gay characters in film and television to reflect the estimated percentage of gays in real life. 2. _Brokeback Mountain_, a financially successful film from 2005, was expected by many in the media to change Hollywood’s perception that mainstream movies with gays were box-office poison. Despite _Brokeback_’s success, since 2005, the percentage of gay characters in film in television has gone _down._ So… your counter-example of a movie with debatable “gay character” content from 38 years ago proves… what? And my question, regardless of premise, was: “What kind of movies with gay characters would we like to see?” And your answer was “la la la la la, I can’t hear you, and you’re wrong.” Thanks for participating. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/98 "2007-10-31T07:52:26Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] And there’s been a dozen other examples. [/QUOTE] Are we reading the same thread? Examples given of movies made before _Brokeback Mountain_: My Best Friend’s Wedding (1997) Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (2005) Boondock Saints (1999) Top Gun (1986) Dog Day Afternoon (1975) As Good As It Gets (1997) The Krays (1990) D.E.B.S. (2003 or 2004) The Birdcage (1996) La Cage aux Folles (1978) The Crying Game (1992) Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975) The Opposite of Sex (1998) But I’m A Cheerleader (1999) Boys Don’t Cry (1999) I Shot Andy Warhol (1996) Midnight Cowboy (1969) The Family Stone (2005) Examples given of movies made **after** _Brokeback Mountain_ Little Miss Sunshine (2006) 300 (2007) So… a dozen counter-examples, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/99 "2007-10-31T12:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] How about a biopic about somebody who was gay, but who was much more famous for something else? E.g., Alan Turing, or Plato, or Richard the Lion-Hearted\*, or pick your own favorite from [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gay%2C_lesbian_or_bisexual_people) [/QUOTE] We had _Kinsey_ about a year after BBM, about a bisexual man who was much more famous for something else. Not sure how mainstream that was. > [@Johanna](#): > > There often seems to be a casual assumption that trans is a subset of gay… An assumption that is fostered by the T’s attachment to the LGB acronym and movement. I don’t know how much of that attachment was fostered by the LGBs and how much by the Ts but the two are by this point probably inextricably welded to each other. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493/100 "2007-10-31T14:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] My premise is wrong? Show me. My premises were: 1. There are not enough gay characters in film and television to reflect the estimated percentage of gays in real life. 2. _Brokeback Mountain_, a financially successful film from 2005, was expected by many in the media to change Hollywood’s perception that mainstream movies with gays were box-office poison. Despite _Brokeback_’s success, since 2005, the percentage of gay characters in film in television has gone _down._ So… your counter-example of a movie with debatable “gay character” content from 38 years ago proves… what? And my question, regardless of premise, was: “What kind of movies with gay characters would we like to see?” 🙂 [/QUOTE] Here’s what you asked for in your op \*“So the trick is to come up with a mainstream movie that also has a gay main character or two — preferably as something more substantial than the comedy-relief hairdresser! — which straight audiences will shell out money for.” \* We have done exactly that a /several/many “mainstream movie that also has a gay main character or two” for which audiences _have_ shelled out money for. Having been shown wrong, you now want the % of gays in film to = the % of gays irl.\* Different request entirely\*. As for "“What kind of movies with gay characters would we like to see?” my answer is “good entertaing ones.”, the same requirement I ask for in movies with all hetero characters. What difference should a gay character make to me? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mainstream-movies-with-gay-main-characters-how-hard-could-it-be/424493.md?page=6)