# Major Amtrak derailment south of Tacoma **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 18, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775 "2017-12-18T17:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/61 "2017-12-19T14:40:38Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > If you’re driving down the road & there’s a sharp curve ahead, there are signs, either showing the curve(s) &/or reduced speed limits. They don’t have these on train tracks. The engineer is supposed to have the route memorized & know where he is at all times & know when to apply the brakes before a big curve. :dubious: That seems like it’s asking a lot of a conductor, especially on a route that’s near 200 miles long. Especially since a train doing 80 MPH would need to begin decelerating for a 30-MPH curve long before the curve comes into sight. According to [this discussion,](http://www.railworksamerica.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4980) speed signs are used, but yes, the conductor should know the route in case a speed sign gets damaged or vandalized. > [@Spiderman](#): > > I also heard that [PCT](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/us/positive-train-control-amtrak/index.html) was not installed on these tracks. I’m kind of surprised that a new line was allowed to go in w/o it. The news this morning said the track was equipped, but this particular train was not yet outfitted; [that was supposed to happen in the next six months](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/us/positive-train-control-amtrak/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/62 "2017-12-19T14:54:14Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The news this morning said the track was equipped, but this particular train was not yet outfitted; [that was supposed to happen in the next six months](http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/us/positive-train-control-amtrak/index.html). :o A nit for which I deserve picking; I meant ‘operational’, not ‘installed’, as my link states. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/63 "2017-12-19T15:26:05Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That answers my question, thanks. I had not been able to find any info on the locomotive configuration. BTW, you accidentally misattributed my question to **Procrustus** – no big deal, just for the record. 🙂 Yeah. That was weird. No harm done. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/64 "2017-12-19T15:53:39Z")
Resident railroad expert checking in here. I did not hear about the incident until yesterday afternoon when I got back home. **DesertRoomie** was anxious to get online so I could only glean what I could pick up on YouTube on the smart TV, which has a terrible search function. The [_Cascades_](https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/timetables/Amtrak-Cascades-Schedule-121817.pdf) is being subsidized by the Washington and Oregon DOTs and Amtrak is the operator. The route change is shorter and faster than the [previous](https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Rail/PNWRC_PtDefiance/Map.htm) route but less scenic and has been under [discussion](http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/69400-cascade-route-change/) by folks more knowledgeable about the route than I. _Cascades_ 501, the train that derailed, was the first passenger train in either direction to use the new route and there were several YouTubers stating it was vandalism caused by those opposed (“fantifa” was being used a lot) to the change. I was dubious about this without more evidence and looking at the [scene](https://www.google.com/maps/@47.0821926,-122.6755097,504m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) I was thinking that the reporters were bandying “80mph route” around a lot but there was no way that curve could be taken at that speed. Sure enough, one station interviewed an actual railroad engineer who said that he had seen in the innumerable helicopter shots a permanent speed restriction [sign](http://16749-presscdn-0-94.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/492762_Ridgefield_rail__23-1024x721.jpg) limiting the curve to 30mph for everyone, Talgo, passenger, and freight. **spiderman** ’s statement that the crew is supposed to know where the slow spots are is true, but there still are signs up for the permanent restrictions. Two miles before the restriction, the [signs](http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/DCP_2947.JPG) are mounted at a 45-degree angle then at the restriction they are horizontal. After the restriction is a sign with simple, green, vertical rectangle that I could find no images of (too boring, I suspect). The engineer has to wait until the entire train has passed that EOR sign before accelerating again. [Talgo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo) is a Spanish train and passenger railcar manufacturer. The cars are more or less permanently coupled together in “sets” which can be self propelled or locomotive-hauled. The [_Cascades_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo#/media/File:Amtrak_in_the_irises_(27041662662).jpg) [sets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cascades#Rolling_stock) are the latter and are [pendular](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_train). This means the train can round a curve at a higher speed with less passenger discomfort, but it won’t help to keep the train on the track at all. The locomotive on the ground at the head end is a [Siemens Charger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Charger), which so far is being used in Amtrak corridor service in various places. They are brand-new, having been delivered in August. The one still on the tracks at the rear of the train is an [EMD F59PHI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_F59PH#F59PHI) which is what was being used on the _Cascade_ trains until the Siemens locomotives started taking their place. I was puzzling over why there was a locomotive on each end. If both are being used this can cause cause discomfort – somewhere in the middle is a car alternating between being pulled and pushed – and is less than optimally safe for the same reason. While often seen on long, heavy freight trains I have never seen a passenger train with working power at both ends. The engineer mentioned above thought it was a [Non Powered Control Unit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_car#Converted_locomotives) but I was thinking, _I dunno. The top’s been scalped off and I’m seeing a prime mover_ (the diesel engine) _sitting in there._ **lawoot** ’s statement that the EMD was being used as a fail-safe makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/65 "2017-12-19T16:10:22Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Resident railroad expert checking in here. I did not hear about the incident until yesterday afternoon when I got back home. **DesertRoomie** was anxious to get online so I could only glean what I could pick up on YouTube on the smart TV, which has a terrible search function. Thank you for the excellent info. This is the sort of info I wish would be reported. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/66 "2017-12-19T16:23:48Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Sure enough, one station interviewed an actual railroad engineer who said that he had seen in the innumerable helicopter shots a permanent speed restriction [sign](http://16749-presscdn-0-94.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/492762_Ridgefield_rail__23-1024x721.jpg) limiting the curve to 30mph for everyone, Talgo, passenger, and freight. **spiderman** ’s statement that the crew is supposed to know where the slow spots are is true, but there still are signs up for the permanent restrictions. Two miles before the restriction, the [signs](http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/DCP_2947.JPG) are mounted at a 45-degree angle then at the restriction they are horizontal. After the restriction is a sign with simple, green, vertical rectangle that I could find no images of (too boring, I suspect). The engineer has to wait until the entire train has passed that EOR sign before accelerating again. Thank you for that information. I’d like to learn more about railway signage. What would be good resources? Also, signal lights baffle me. When I cross a railroad while driving I’ll look up the tracks and sometimes you see 2-3 red lights vertically spaced. How are those read? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/67 "2017-12-19T18:17:08Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I was puzzling over why there was a locomotive on each end. If both are being used this can cause cause discomfort – somewhere in the middle is a car alternating between being pulled and pushed – and is less than optimally safe for the same reason. While often seen on long, heavy freight trains I have never seen a passenger train with working power at both ends. There are many passenger trains in Europe that have locomotives on both ends. All [TGV trains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV), [Inter-City 125](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_125), and even Talgo ([Talgo 350](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE_Class_102) etc). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/68 "2017-12-19T19:17:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Thank you for that information. I’d like to learn more about railway signage. What would be good resources? Also, signal lights baffle me. When I cross a railroad while driving I’ll look up the tracks and sometimes you see 2-3 red lights vertically spaced. How are those read? The three light stack signals track use: the red light indicates that the next section of track has a train in it; the yellow light indicates that there is a train in the following section; the green light indicates clear track for the next two sections. Trains may not share a section of track. The other light arrangements are probably to show the state of switches ahead. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/69 "2017-12-19T19:55:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Thank you for that information. I’d like to learn more about railway signage. What would be good resources? Also, signal lights baffle me. When I cross a railroad while driving I’ll look up the tracks and sometimes you see 2-3 red lights vertically spaced. How are those read? As often in life the answer is, “It depends.” The different railroads had different rules; that’s why I specified ‘on BNSF’ in that post. The article in [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_railroad_signals) is a good place to start along with its related article, [North American railway signalling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_railway_signaling). Doing a search on YouTube can also help. The multi-head signals are used where there is more than one route to take. A major difference is in the west, the signals indicate the route and in the east they indicate the speed. Living in the west, I am more familiar with the former which means the top light indicates the main route and the lower light the diverging route. So if the signal is green over red, you are taking the main route and it is clear for at least two blocks ahead. Red over green means you are taking the diverging route and it is clear for two blocks; the speed through the diverging route is covered in the rulebook. Yellow over red is main route, but be prepared to stop at the next signal. Red over yellow, ditto for the diverging route. [Here](http://www.railroadsignals.us/basics/basics1.htm) is a rather clunky site for railfans. [This](http://www.railway-technical.com/signalling/us-railroad-signalling.html) is more elegant but might make your head 'splode. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/70 "2017-12-19T20:32:02Z")
Why don’t trains have seatbelts? I know in normal situations they aren’t needed, but in this one, as I think about people flying around as the cars derailed, I wonder if there would’ve been fewer deaths/injuries had seatbelts been required. I wondered that even when I took the train to Portland a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/71 "2017-12-19T21:28:02Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Why don’t trains have seatbelts? I know in normal situations they aren’t needed, but in this one, as I think about people flying around as the cars derailed, I wonder if there would’ve been fewer deaths/injuries had seatbelts been required. I wondered that even when I took the train to Portland a few years ago. There certainly would have been fewer deaths and injuries, yes. Even fewer if you use five-point harnesses, helmets, and HANS devices, like Formula One cars. When it comes to aircraft safety measures, [the FAA assumes a human life is worth six million dollars;](https://www.google.com/search?q=FAA%20value%20of%20a%20human%20life&cad=h) if a fleetwide safety measure costs more than $6M X the number of lives it’s expected to save, then it’s just not worth it. Presumably a similar analysis has shown the NTSB that installing seatbelts on every passenger train won’t save enough lives to justify the expense, because trains don’t crash often enough or violently enough. Even in the present crash, they went off the tracks at 80 MPH, and only 3 of ~80 people got killed; that’s how safe the train is, even without seatbelts. Send 80 Honda Accords flying into the woods at 80 MPH without seat belts, and you’ll probably kill 80 of 80 drivers. The same issue gets raised for school buses on a regular basis, and the answer is the same: it’s just not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/72 "2017-12-19T21:34:18Z")
It might be too soon, but I think stock in railway control stock is about to head upwards. Why the hell was that train allowed out on the track without a working signaling system? ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/73 "2017-12-19T23:39:02Z")
**The Vorlon** - The _signal system_ was working fine. Positive Train Control - PTC - wasn’t ready to be initiated, but wouldn’t have affected the running of trains. Trains have been running without it for well over a hundred years, and still do in MANY parts of the country. > [@](#): > > by eschereal - > > No. The entire run of track is rated for 79. If you look at google maps, the location of the crash has a bright red dot. Go to satellite view and look at the actual tracks. That is no way a 30mph curve – and anyway, Washington always under-rates curve speeds by at least 10mph, in terms of staying in control at least. - “No” back atcha. The curve was rated for 30 MPH. as noted before by others (including myself 🙂 ), there are signs saying this. and one of the men responsible for this was quoted at [trainorders.com](http://trainorders.com) weeks ago that straightening that curve was WAY off in the future - just too expensive to do at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/74 "2017-12-20T04:19:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Spiderman View Post > If you’re driving down the road & there’s a sharp curve ahead, there are signs, either showing the curve(s) &/or reduced speed limits. They don’t have these on train tracks. The engineer is supposed to have the route memorized & know where he is at all times & know when to apply the brakes before a big curve. > That seems like it’s asking a lot of a conductor, especially on a route that’s near 200 miles long. Especially since a train doing 80 MPH would need to begin decelerating for a 30-MPH curve long before the curve comes into sight. If you ever git the chance, read Mark Twain’s book on being a pilot on the old river steamboats. “Life on the Mississippi”, I think it was titled. He goes into great detail about the amount of things a steamboat pilot had to memorize in order to safely pilot the boat between St Louis and New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/75 "2017-12-20T11:34:48Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > … > I was thinking that the reporters were bandying “80mph route” around a lot but there was no way that curve could be taken at that speed. Sure enough, one station interviewed an actual railroad engineer who said that he had seen in the innumerable helicopter shots a permanent speed restriction [sign](http://16749-presscdn-0-94.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/492762_Ridgefield_rail__23-1024x721.jpg) limiting the curve to 30mph for everyone, Talgo, passenger, and freight. > … How does that sign indicate 30MPH? I see: T - 79 P - 70 F - 60 Is it the color that matters? Thanks, Brian ---
**Author:** ![The\_Vorlon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@The\_Vorlon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Vorlon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/76 "2017-12-20T14:40:42Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > **The Vorlon** - The _signal system_ was working fine. Positive Train Control - PTC - wasn’t ready to be initiated, but wouldn’t have affected the running of trains. Trains have been running without it for well over a hundred years, and still do in MANY parts of the country. Maybe you should change that to “Trains have been running INTO one another for well over a hundred years…” In 1969, the MBTA started service on the Quincy branch of the Red line, with PTC. 47 years later, a new chunk of track, with a new locomotive, did not have it working? Whaaa? Note the Green line has no PTC, and fixing that will cost north of 700 million. However, the Green line needs it’s body and fender shop after many attempted mateings of the cars. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/77 "2017-12-20T15:01:20Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > How does that sign indicate 30MPH? I see: > T - 79 > P - 70 > F - 60 > > Is it the color that matters? > Thanks, > Brian I’m assuming that’s not a picture of the 30 mph sign, just a generic picture of what a speed limiting train sign looks like. I know, I was confused, too, at first. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/78 "2017-12-20T15:09:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m assuming that’s not a picture of the 30 mph sign, just a generic picture of what a speed limiting train sign looks like. I know, I was confused, too, at first. Yeah, that must be it, as it’s the first result I get for a Google image search for “train limit sign.” It does happen to be a picture of such a sign in the state of Washington, but farther south, in the town of Ridgefield, about a hundred miles south of the accident. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/79 "2017-12-20T15:10:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m assuming that’s not a picture of the 30 mph sign, just a generic picture of what a speed limiting train sign looks like. I know, I was confused, too, at first. Yeah, that must be it, as it’s the first result I get for a Google image search for “train limit sign.” (Although, I suppose, my results may have been “seeded” as I’ve already visited that link before making the search.) It does happen to be a picture of such a sign in the state of Washington, but way down south, in the town of Ridgefield, about a hundred miles south of the accident. Also, the picture is from four years ago. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775/80 "2017-12-20T15:16:38Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > How does that sign indicate 30MPH? I see: > T - 79 > P - 70 > F - 60 > > Is it the color that matters? > Thanks, > Brian That was just an image I grabbed in a Google image search, as was the advance sign with the tilted numbers. None of the news sites I looked at had any pictures of the actual sign; it would have been a couple hundred yards down the track before the curve. Even if a photographer had thought of it, they are probably not allowed to wander around at will at a site where large heavy objects are being hoisted. The engineer I cited said he’d seen the sign in some of the helicopter footage. Color does not matter. On BNSF, speed restriction signs are always yellow\* so the one at the crash site would have read: T 30 P 30 F 30 Even though the route was being used by _Cascade_ for the first time, the wreck should not have been caused by unfamiliarity with the route. It was not brand new track but rather, a freight line that was laid down in 1890. Parts of it were upgraded by WDOT – look at the link in my first post – but by no means all nor even a majority. Now, freight engineers and passenger engineers are separate groups but undoubtedly rehearsal runs were made by the latter for weeks if not months before that first revenue run. [del]Even[/del] Especially if that had not not done, there would have been an engineer on board, called a pilot, who _is_ familiar. This is commonly done for such things as steam excursions where knowledge of how to run the locomotive well and knowledge of the route in the same engineer are hard to come by. \*The color and style may be different on another railroad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-amtrak-derailment-south-of-tacoma/804775.md?page=5)