# Major Differences Between Modern-Day Judiasm and Modern-Day Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330 "2011-05-09T21:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/101 "2011-05-12T03:25:49Z")
Okay, Dio, thank you for that unclear explanation with citations. Also, halal meat is not kosher, nor does Osama Bin Laden once following dietary laws of Islam mean he’s a better follower of Mosaic Law than I. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/102 "2011-05-12T03:27:34Z")
It’s close enough that Muslims can eat kosher and be safe. I also don’t know what the hell you want cites for. You’re doing that thing again where you make up shit I didn’t say and demand cites for it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/103 "2011-05-12T03:30:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Muslims and Jews worship the same God, have many of the same imaginary heroes and follow many of the same archaic supoerstitions. Christianity struck out completely on it’s own with a totally different theology and much weirder superstitions. You are annoying all three sides with that post. I am impressed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/104 "2011-05-12T03:43:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s close enough that Muslims can eat kosher and be safe. I also don’t know what the hell you want cites for. You’re doing that thing again where you make up shit I didn’t say and demand cites for it. I have been given to understand that in providing food to disaster victims, Kosher is a subset of Halal. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/105 "2011-05-12T04:08:37Z")
He said that Muslims keeping halal were following Mosaic law better than “liberal” Jews. False. Non-kosher meat is non-kosher meat. Makey no difference to kosher-keeping Jews. Halal meat isn’t kosher. _shrug_ 'tis yummy, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/106 "2011-05-12T05:10:40Z")
All kosher meat is halal. Halal is based on Kosher. Muslims who keep halal are, in fact, following Mosaic law closer than liberal Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/107 "2011-05-12T05:24:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All kosher meat is halal. Halal is based on Kosher. Muslims who keep halal are, in fact, following Mosaic law closer than liberal Jews. Hey Dio! All kosher meat is halal does not = all halal meat is kosher. There’s no difference between halal met and McDonald’s. It’s not kosher. 😕 And you can be a liberal Jew who keeps kosher. I know quite a few. Most kosher keeping Jews I know are liberal. Just because you subscribe to your religion’s dietary practice does not mean you subscribe to another’s law. Ok? Thanks. Also, next time you make statements like that and can’t back it up with cites, just say, “I can’t cite my claims.” kthx ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/108 "2011-05-12T05:43:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Hey Dio! > > All kosher meat is halal does not = all halal meat is kosher. Utterly irrelevant to my point. > [@](#): > > And you can be a liberal Jew who keeps kosher. So? > [@](#): > > Just because you subscribe to your religion’s dietary practice does not mean you subscribe to another’s law. Ok? Thanks. Halal is based on kosher. Sorry, but Islam is just a Jewish sect. Ironically it’s probably closer to ancient Judaism than modern Judaism. Modermn Jews ignore all the stuff in their Bible about beating people to death with rocks for little or no reason (like working on the sabbath or rebelling against one parents). Muslims take that shit to heart. Modern Jews could learn a lot from Sharia Muslims about the true spirit of Mosaic law and the true heart of HaShem. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/109 "2011-05-12T06:47:00Z")
I always find it hilarious when non-Muslims try to argue the Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism. That certainly isn’t he way Muslims think. We tend to see far more similarities and kinship with Christians than Jews. The Muslim concept of God, the lovey dovey God who cares about all mankind and who has set forth a universal message for all mankind, is far closer to the Christian concept of God than than the Jewish concept of God, who is not all that nice and doesn’t give a shit about humans except for members of the Jewish tribe and has set down rules and regulations that the Jews have to abide by and who has made a covenant with the Jews, but not with any of the other tribes. Furthermore, Jews don’t get all that worked up about the Devil and the afterlife whereas Muslims and Christians are consumed with concern for both. I also nearly pissed myself laughing at the idea that Muhammad was one of the THREE great prophets. Yes, Muslims do believe in prophets other than Muhammad, but it’s more than just Musa(Moses) and Issa(Jesus), and Muhammad was certainly the most important. Moreover, Jews have made it very clear that classifying Jesus as the Messiah is a huge no-no, to the point where Israeli citizens who claim this are stripped of their citizenship and expelled, while all serious Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that he will return during the Day of Judgement and that he will battle the anti-Christ. You start asking Jews about what they think of the devil and what the think will happen when the Christ returns to Earth to fight against the Anti-Christ and they’ll start looking at you like you grew a second head. Finally, anyone who claims that Jews and Muslims have the same concept of an afterlife is either lying or doesn’t know what they are talking about. By contrast, the Islamic concept of heaven and helll is almost identical to the Christian concept of the afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/110 "2011-05-12T06:50:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sorry, but Islam is just a Jewish sect. Ironically it’s probably closer to ancient Judaism than modern Judaism. Modermn Jews ignore all the stuff in their Bible about beating people to death with rocks for little or no reason (like working on the sabbath or rebelling against one parents). Muslims take that shit to heart. Modern Jews could learn a lot from Sharia Muslims about the true spirit of Mosaic law and the true heart of HaShem. This is a bunch of bigoted bullshit. Please learn something about Muslims before shooting off your mouth about us. We don’t all fit into your bigoted fantasies. Moreover, you could just as easily argue that Christianity is a “Jewish sect” and make a far more convincing case that Islam is a “Christian sect”. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/111 "2011-05-12T10:29:06Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You are annoying all three sides with that post. > > I am impressed. 🙂 He’s not annoying this Jewish person! (Although I agree that if you have to draw those kinds of connections at all, which I’m not sure is necessary, **Ibn Warraq** ’s description of Christianity as a Jewish sect and Islam as a Christian sect is closer to the mark.) Rabbinic Judaism is a thoroughly different religion than Mosaic “Judaism”, which is great because Mosaic law is pretty awful in lots of places. As for “the true heart of HaShem”, _lo bashamayim hi_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/112 "2011-05-12T10:34:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, Jews have made it very clear that classifying Jesus as the Messiah is a huge no-no, to the point where Israeli citizens who claim this are stripped of their citizenship and expelled Do you have a cite for this? The current Israeli government is a giant pile of dickheads so nothing they do shocks me any more, but I haven’t heard of this specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/113 "2011-05-12T12:45:53Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? The current Israeli government is a giant pile of dickheads so nothing they do shocks me any more, but I haven’t heard of this specifically. It was in the late 80s or early 90s. A couple of American Jews who’d made immigrated there were stripped of their citizenship and kicked out when it was discovered they were messianic Jews, claiming Jesus was the Messiah. As far as the Israeli government was concerned, this meant they were practicing a religion other than Judaism and they were kicked out. That’s part of the reason it’s pretty obvious Dio doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he’s insisting that Islam is “a Jewish sect”, which is something both Jews and Muslims would find offensive. You could make a far better case, though still be wrong, by claiming that Islam is a Christian sect. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/114 "2011-05-12T12:48:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I always find it hilarious when non-Muslims try to argue the Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism. > > That certainly isn’t he way Muslims think. We tend to see far more similarities and kinship with Christians than Jews. What about the strict monotheism? That seems to be a big deal in Islam and Judaism, almost defining features of the religion, and is very much altered in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/115 "2011-05-12T12:52:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, Jews have made it very clear that classifying Jesus as the Messiah is a huge no-no, to the point where Israeli citizens who claim this are stripped of their citizenship and expelled, while all serious Muslims believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that he will return during the Day of Judgement and that he will battle the anti-Christ. So no Israeli citizens are Christians? When Muslims say Jesus is the “Messiah,” I don’t think they mean the same thing as Christians. For Christians, Jesus is literally both an avatar of God and an independent manifestation of God that exists for all eternity with all of God’s powers. He exists simultaneously as God but also is God. God is basically three and one, simultaneously, in Christianity. Modern-day Christianity is basically defined by the divinity of Jesus. If you don’t believe that Jesus = God, you’re not a Christian (for all denominations that I’m aware of). I think the triune God is anathema to both Muslims and Jews and makes those religions much more similar to each other than Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/116 "2011-05-12T12:59:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It was in the late 80s or early 90s. A couple of American Jews who’d made immigrated there were stripped of their citizenship and kicked out when it was discovered they were messianic Jews, claiming Jesus was the Messiah. Messianic Judaism is Christianity. Messianic Jews are Christians. They worship Jesus. Thyey use the Christian definition of the Messiah. They use the New Testament. It’s a Christian denomination. Nothing Jewish about it. It’s a method that Christians use to try to convert Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/117 "2011-05-12T13:01:00Z")
Ibn Doesn’t seem to have much idea of what the word “Messiah” means in Christianity, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/118 "2011-05-12T13:21:57Z")
Another similarity with Islam and Judaism is language. The religions are heavily associated with Arabic and Hebrew, respectively (even reform Jews have to learn some Hebrew for the bar mitzvah, right?) Christianity has no such linguistic association. I don’t think anyone outside of a few scholars try to read the Bible in its original language; that is to say, reading the Bible in its original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek is not necessary to the practice of modern-day Christianity. Occasionally I’ve heard preachers bring up the meaning of a word in the Bible in Greek to argue for a certain interpretation, but that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/119 "2011-05-12T13:29:41Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The only difference in the way Jews were treated versus all the other peoples white Christians essentially “erased” as cultures is that Jews still exist. So in a way they are notable in that their treatment didn’t fully destroy them as a people. > > I suspect that is for two reasons: > > 1. Both Christianity and Islam actually _historically_ tolerated Judaism better than they did other religions. Paganism was essentially wiped out because Christians just refused to accept it, period. Judaism was harshly assaulted by Christianity, but at enough points in European history enough rulers were willing to tolerate the presence of unconverted Jews that Judaism lived. Unconverted pagans were massacred over and over until the only ones left converted. > > 2. Most pagan tribes clung to their ancestral land/region, and thus were “one easy target” and were gradually destroyed/assimilated. By being dispersed the Jews were not so easy to snuff out permanently. > > So if there is anything unique in the treatment of Jews, it is that they were treated _much less harshly_ than pretty much any other minority group in the history of “Christian Europe.” What you are missing is that pagans were not “wiped out”. Most accepted conversion to Christianity easily, and from the “top down”: that is, the leaders, convinced of the benefits of joining Christianity, converted, and soon so too did their followers. There were actually reasonably few _forcible_ conversions to Christianity - for example, the forcible conversion of the Saxons by Charlemagne. In most cases, conversion within Christianity was actually reasonably peaceable, and in all cases it was reasonably swift; and it in no way resembled the centuries-long oppression of the Jews. Indeed, the very notion of the Inquisition was originally triggered, not by pagans, but by Christian heritics - the Cathars; and soon it focused on the Muslims and Jews of Spain in the post-reconquista. The conversion of the pagans was made easier by the fact that Christianity is easy to make “local” by the inclusion of local saints and the like. The idea that the pagans were _exterminated_ is laughable - I mean, there are no Germans any more? No Anglo-Saxons? The modern royalty of Britian still traces its ancestry, ultimately, to Wotan. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/120 "2011-05-12T13:36:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It was in the late 80s or early 90s. A couple of American Jews who’d made immigrated there were stripped of their citizenship and kicked out when it was discovered they were messianic Jews, claiming Jesus was the Messiah. > > As far as the Israeli government was concerned, this meant they were practicing a religion other than Judaism and they were kicked out. > > That’s part of the reason it’s pretty obvious Dio doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he’s insisting that Islam is “a Jewish sect”, which is something both Jews and Muslims would find offensive. > > You could make a far better case, though still be wrong, by claiming that Islam is a Christian sect. You are mixing issues though. I haven’t heard of this incident specifically, but it sounds like these folks claimed automatic entry under the so-called “right of return” on the basis that they were Jews; when of course they are Christians. The “right of return” isn’t about religion, it is about protecting folks of a certain ethnicity from persecution - whether one agrees with it or not, it’s a relic of WW2 (the inspiration is the fact that, prior to WW2, no country would accept Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, and the desire for this situation not to arise again). In short, it is to shelter a particular group, the bounds of which are defined as “Jews”, from being rejected for shelter as refugees. This necessarily requires some sort of definition for the term - if Christians or Muslims could be “Jews”, then the notion would expand beyond the ability of a tiny country like Israel to accomodate 'em (I know, one could certainly argue that any refugee anywhere ought to be given shelter - and in a perfect world, I’d agree). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330.md?page=7)