# Major Differences Between Modern-Day Judiasm and Modern-Day Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330 "2011-05-09T21:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/121 "2011-05-12T13:51:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > What happened if I was a Muslim merchant in 1300 AD and I moved to England and wanted to buy a parcel of land and start a manor? Or if I was a practitioner of one of the pre-Christian European religions? By and large people who were not seen as adhering to Christianity were executed or slaughtered. It is actually remarkable that the insanely racist, xenophobic, and bigoted European Christians of the Dark/Middle Ages tolerated Jews at all. It isn’t like the Jewish communities in Europe could have survived if the local elites did not wish them, they were smaller in number than any number of major pagan tribes/peoples that were forcefully subdued and converted. > > I would instead posit the treatment of Jews in Europe is actually only notable in its leniency. And while the Holocaust was obviously not lenient, it was only remarkable because it happened in the 20th century and in a “modern” country. The sad truth is deliberate extermination of peoples has happened hundreds of times (many times more holistically than the holocaust) throughout human history. What you are missing is that the treatment of the Jews was indeed _unique_ - to be (barely) tolerated, subject to periodic expulsions and massacres … yet to have survived. Ceratinly, _some_ groups have been subject to masssacre and have disappeared, More have simply evolved into something different (the vast majority of the pagan tribes of Europe fall within this category - it isn;t as if the Christian Romans conquored _them_ rather than the other way around! 😃 ). When the Muslims came a-visting in Europe, they tended to be the ones doing the conqouring and enslaving - though that tide turned the other way the last few centuries (people often forget the fact that the Muslims were not exactly peacable in _their_ relations with Christendom - and that the Turk was hammering at the gates of Vienna as late as the 17th century). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/122 "2011-05-12T14:26:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ibn Doesn’t seem to have much idea of what the word “Messiah” means in Christianity, by the way. Were we discussing the Christian concept of the Messiah you’d have a point, but we’re not so you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/123 "2011-05-12T14:35:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Were we discussing the Christian concept of the Messiah you’d have a point, but we’re not so you don’t. But we are. You are trying to argue that Muslims accept Jesus as “the messiah,” which makes them sympatico with Christians. What you are missing is that that word has a totally different meaning to Christians than it does to Muslims and Jews, and in point of fact, Islam does NOT accept Jesus as the Messiah in the way that Christians define that term. It’s not just that Muslims don’t think Jesus was God, by the way, they have an entirely different set of criteria for what a Messiah is supposed to _do_. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/124 "2011-05-12T14:40:08Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > So no Israeli citizens are Christians? > > When Muslims say Jesus is the “Messiah,” I don’t think they mean the same thing as Christians. For Christians, Jesus is literally both an avatar of God and an independent manifestation of God that exists for all eternity with all of God’s powers. He exists simultaneously as God but also is God. God is basically three and one, simultaneously, in Christianity. > > Modern-day Christianity is basically defined by the divinity of Jesus. If you don’t believe that Jesus = God, you’re not a Christian (for all denominations that I’m aware of). > I think the triune God is anathema to both Muslims and Jews and makes those religions much more similar to each other than Christianity. Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is part of God and they do object to the Trinitarian concept of God, but their concept of the Messiah is far closer to the Christian concept. Jews don’t believe that the Messiah walked the earth, that he was Jesus, that God faked his death at the crucifixion and that he will return at the End of Days to battle it out with the anti-Christ, who will look exactly like him. Obviously, there are many similarities between Judaism and Islam since Islam, like Christianity grew out of Judaism, but Islam was far more influenced by Christianity(probably because Muhammad met far more Christians than Jews). That’s why Muslims generally speaking have felt closer kinship with Christians despite far more conflict between the two than between Jews and Muslims(prior to 1948 of course). It’s also why for a time Christian scholars thought of Muslims as heretical Christians while I’ve never heard of Jewish scholars having similar beliefs about Christians or Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/125 "2011-05-12T14:44:50Z")
Jewish religious scholarship doesn’t really tend to think in terms of “heretical Jews,” just in terms of Jewish and non-Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/126 "2011-05-12T14:45:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > the anti-Christ, who will look exactly like him. The idea that there is going to be ONE anti-christ, and that that person will be some kind of Big Bad here on Earth, is a relatively recent gloss on Scripture. And I’ve never heard the idea that such an anti-christ will be some mirror universe analogue of Jesus, nor that the End Times will involve some sort of Street Fighter deathmatch between Jesus and this anti-christ. Even the denominations that believe the anti-christ is the Satan-herald Big Bad don’t believe in a knock-down, drag-out between him and Jesus, mano a mano, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/127 "2011-05-12T14:45:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, Jews have made it very clear that classifying Jesus as the Messiah is a huge no-no, to the point where Israeli citizens who claim this are stripped of their citizenship and expelled, Cite. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It was in the late 80s or early 90s. A couple of American Jews who’d made immigrated there were stripped of their citizenship and kicked out when it was discovered they were messianic Jews, claiming Jesus was the Messiah. > > As far as the Israeli government was concerned, this meant they were practicing a religion other than Judaism and they were kicked out. No, that’s not a cite. You need to _cite_ or you’re just making seriously unsubstantiated claims that no one else here is familiar with. > [@Malthus](#): > > You are mixing issues though. > > I haven’t heard of this incident specifically, but it sounds like these folks claimed automatic entry under the so-called “right of return” on the basis that they were Jews; when of course they are Christians. > > The “right of return” isn’t about religion, it is about protecting folks of a certain ethnicity from persecution - whether one agrees with it or not, it’s a relic of WW2 (the inspiration is the fact that, prior to WW2, no country would accept Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, and the desire for this situation not to arise again). > > In short, it is to shelter a particular group, the bounds of which are defined as “Jews”, from being rejected for shelter as refugees. This necessarily requires some sort of definition for the term - if Christians or Muslims could be “Jews”, then the notion would expand beyond the ability of a tiny country like Israel to accomodate 'em (I know, one could certainly argue that any refugee anywhere ought to be given shelter - and in a perfect world, I’d agree). Yeah, I’m not sure why people would have their citizenship removed, but the Right of Return was based on parentage. If people were expelled and happen to be Christian, that does not mean they were expelled for being Christian. If people were expelled for being Christian on that basis alone, it makes little sense. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/128 "2011-05-12T14:49:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is part of God and they do object to the Trinitarian concept of God, but their concept of the Messiah is far closer to the Christian concept. > > . . . that he will return at the End of Days to battle it out with the anti-Christ, who will look exactly like him. Only a small number of Christians believe in an anti-Christ who is independent of Satan, AFAIK. And I don’t think any of them think that the anti-Christ will look exactly like Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/129 "2011-05-12T14:51:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But we are. You are trying to argue that Muslims accept Jesus as “the messiah”. They do. He’s referred to as “Al Masiah” throughout the Quran. Obviously, they don’t think of him as being God the way that Christians do, but their beliefs are heavily influenced by Christianity. By comparison, the Jewish couple in Israel who were stripped of their citizenship and expelled pointed out that they came from Jewish families and that while they saw Jesus as the Messiah, they didn’t consider him divine. They also pointed out that most of the members of Chabad believed their leader, Menachem Schneerson(who was IIRC alive at this time) was the Messiah, yet they were not being stripped of their citizenship and declared non-Jews. In short, the government of Israel with the enthusiastic support of the religious authorities declared that if you believe Jesus is the Nessiah, you’re not Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/130 "2011-05-12T15:03:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Jews don’t believe that … Jesus… God faked his death at the crucifixion … to battle it out with the anti-Christ, who will look exactly like him. Neither do Christians. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/131 "2011-05-12T15:12:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Neither do Christians. 🙂 Yes, Islamic beliefs about Jesus are different than Christian ones. Why are people surprised? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/132 "2011-05-12T15:13:17Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They do. He’s referred to as “Al Masiah” throughout the Quran. mosiach (loosely) is a revered priest or prophet. I can see how Muslims would keep the linguistic equivalent. > [@](#): > > By comparison, the Jewish couple in Israel who were stripped of their citizenship and expelled pointed out that they came from Jewish families and that while they saw Jesus as the Messiah, they didn’t consider him divine. Hey will you please cite this stuff? Can you read me? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/133 "2011-05-12T15:15:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They do. He’s referred to as “Al Masiah” throughout the Quran. Which has a completely and totally different meaning than the New Testament title of _Christos_. > [@](#): > > Obviously, they don’t think of him as being God the way that Christians do, but their beliefs are heavily influenced by Christianity. Not as much as by Judiasm. > [@](#): > > By comparison, the Jewish couple in Israel who were stripped of their citizenship and expelled pointed out that they came from Jewish families and that while they saw Jesus as the Messiah, they didn’t consider him divine I’m skeptocal that this happened in the way that you describe (it sounds like maybe a couple of Christians tried to scam the Right of Return), but if they were Messianic Jews, they were Christians by definition. That is a Christian denomination. > [@](#): > > They also pointed out that most of the members of Chabad believed their leader, Menachem Schneerson(who was IIRC alive at this time) was the Messiah, yet they were not being stripped of their citizenship and declared non-Jews. Your confusion on this once again stems from your mistaken impression that the word “messiah” means the same thing in Christianity as it does in Judaism. Messianic Jews have a completely different set of theological beliefs than the followers of Rabbi Schneerson. > [@](#): > > In short, the government of Israel with the enthusiastic support of the religious authorities declared that if you believe Jesus is the Nessiah, you’re not Jewish. They’re correct. You’re not. At least not religiously. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/134 "2011-05-12T15:29:07Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > mosiach (loosely) is a revered priest or prophet. Literally, “anointed,” as was the practice for kings and high priests. Figuratively it can also refer to people specially chosen by God. In Judaism there have been many mosiachs (high priests, kings in the line of David and others…even the Persian king, Cyrus, is called mosiach by God himself). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/135 "2011-05-12T15:31:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, Islamic beliefs about Jesus are different than Christian ones. > > Why are people surprised? Yes, Christianity is theologically more alien to both Judaism and Islam than Judiasm and Islam are to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/136 "2011-05-12T15:38:06Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yeah, I’m not sure why people would have their citizenship removed, but the Right of Return was based on parentage. If people were expelled and happen to be Christian, that does not mean they were expelled for being Christian. If people were expelled for being Christian on that basis alone, it makes little sense. 😕 While the Right of Return initially applied to anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent, it has since been modified, in IIRC either the 70s or the 80s to exclude people who “practice a religion other than Judaism” which, to me at least, makes sense since practicing Christians and Muslims shouldn’t be considered Jews. That’s why some Falashas have been expelled when they were discovered to be practicing Christians, though there have been many complaints about this not being done to Russian immigrants who clearly are practicing Christians with predictable accusations as to why the Falashas are being treated differently. Anyway, the case I’m referring to was covered by the New York Times in the early 90s. I’m not sure why you’re upset by it since I’d have thought you’d have agreed with the court’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/137 "2011-05-12T15:40:50Z")
You should agree with it too, if you agree that the Right of Return should not apply to practicing Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/138 "2011-05-12T15:41:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, Christianity is theologically more alien to both Judaism and Islam than Judiasm and Islam are to each other. Considering the bigoted bullshit you spewed earlier about Muslims I don’t think your in a good position to judge. Muslims and Christians in the Middle East would be laughing hysterically at your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/139 "2011-05-12T15:43:52Z")
I was being a little facetious with my remarks above about Sharia, but certainly there are Muslim countries where those kinds of remarks are accurate. There ARE Muslim states who still practice stoning. For what it’s worth, though, I fear Christian zealots more than Muslim ones. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330/140 "2011-05-12T15:46:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You should agree with it too, if you agree that the Right of Return should not apply to practicing Christians. I’m not a Zionist so I don’t agree with the Right of Return at all and I think it’s odious that any Jew who wants to can immigrate there while Palestians born in Haifa or Jaffa are excluded. As to the decision, well I’ll let the Israeli government decide who is and isn’t a Jew. Similarly, if the religious parties ever succeed in pushing through a law mandating that converts to Reform, Reconstructionist, or Conservative Judaism be excluded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/major-differences-between-modern-day-judiasm-and-modern-day-islam/581330.md?page=8)