# Majority of vehicles on road being EVs **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2023, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910 "2023-01-09T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/81 "2023-06-26T14:42:08Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Right now my street is about 2% EV, the grid can handle that easily enough but once we start getting to 30-40-50% on my street…& the next street, & the street after that is the electric co going to have increase capacity, maybe add new generation plants? I think some of that is ICE thinking. Most EV charging is not going to be during the day as people are commuting, running errands, etc. It is at night at home when demand is already low. So there is a lot of kWh of slack already in the system to be taken up before we have to worry about demand vs supply. > [@md-2000](#): > > Also, for the nay-sayers who complain “but the electricity is generated by carbon fuels”… Not all of it is. The demand that EVs create is just part of the overall picture of how are we going to create electricity to meet demand for all uses over the next 50 years (until fusion is a thing). Interesting note: the Colorado Republicans are actively against promoting EVs in the state including incentives for the cars themselves and charging stations. I believe this is because in their way of thinking it eats into the demand for coal, oil and natural gas. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/82 "2023-06-27T21:18:42Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > But what if, in the course of my duties as an insomniac trombone repairman, I have to drive 300 miles, then sleep for four hours, then drive another 300 miles first thing in the morning? What then, huh? Then you go to the supercharger, where within 30 minutes you can fully charge your vehicle. Meanwhile, you’ve saved the supercharger fee for about 120mi. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > 80 amps will give you 65 miles of range for each hour plugged in. While this would be useful on the highway between cities when traveling, it would be ridiculous to install such a charger in a house, where presumably the car will spend hours overnight sitting in a garage. 26A at 240V givers me 38km (22mi) in an hour. This is slightly less than 200Wh per km or about 300Wh per mile. Just as a note, the L2 charger 240V - a Tesla Model 3 will not charge above 48A and a medium-range is limited to 240V - 40A. (The Model S and X will charge 240V 80A). For several months I used the portable Tesla charger that (used to) come with the car, and was limited to 32A and it worked fine. I agree, a high power is overkill. But… at 40A (50A breaker) I did pop the main breaker on 100A service one hot summer night - presumably the freezer, AC, and hot water tank all decided to kick in at the same time. Since then, I’ve software-limited myself to 26A with no issues for 2 plus years > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think some of that is ICE thinking. Most EV charging is not going to be during the day as people are commuting, running errands, etc. It is at night at home when demand is already low. So there is a lot of kWh of slack already in the system to be taken up before we have to worry about demand vs supply. There’s an option for people to charge at work, perhaps - but that would require employers to wire the parking lot and invest in a lot of chargers. For now, when 2 or 3 people have EVs and would prefer to charge (no charger at home), and the employer wants to look environmentally conscious, no big deal. A parking lot for 200 employees who all want to charge? Not likely. Of course, adding solar panels too would limit the cost of the charging provided to employees. Perhaps up here in Canada where some areas have standard 120V plugs for winter car warmers, a L1 charger - 120V, 10A - will add 3mph so add 24mi/40km over an 8 hour shift - better than zero, but not a replacement for real charging. . ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/83 "2023-06-27T21:25:48Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > A parking lot for 200 employees who all want to charge? Want to charge? Probably. But **have** to charge? Probably not. Mrs Cad worked at a place for three years with 4 chargers and only once was able to charge because the chargers were full when she got there. The only time she _needed_ to charge was the one time she forgot to plug in the Tesla that night AND she was at 50% of her regular miles per charge rate because of the cold. The biggest impact on the grid will come from companies with EV fleets. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/84 "2023-06-27T22:12:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The biggest impact on the grid will come from companies with EV fleets. I imaging that the future fleet chargers will have more precise control. Vehicles will be plugged in at the end of the shift, but only the lowest charge ones wills tart right away, and then only at a low rate, until the cheap rate time arrives, and then the load will be distributed to avoid peaks, and based on anticipated schedules for those vehicles. There’s a lot that can be done if the users invest in technology and smart control. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The only time she _needed_ to charge was the one time she forgot to plug in the Tesla that night AND she was at 50% of her regular miles per charge rate because of the cold. This is where I also see an issue - yes, there are chargers, but do those people need to park there all day? Odds are 2 or 3 hours and they’re done charging. Tesla superchargers enforce this by charging parking fees of vehicles present and plugged in but done charging, if the charger site is busy and heavily occupied. You don’t want to leave the car plugged in for an extra hour while you enjoy a leisurely luch inside the nearby restaurant. This is actually an interesting complaint, the car can charge in about half an hour, just enough time for a quick errand in the nearby shopping mall. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/85 "2023-06-27T23:18:01Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > You don’t want to leave the car plugged in for an extra hour while you enjoy a leisurely luch inside the nearby restaurant. This is actually an interesting complaint, the car can charge in about half an hour, just enough time for a quick errand in the nearby shopping mall. Actually, you totally _do_ want to leave the car plugged in while you lunch; getting up from the middle of lunch to move the car is a total PITA. Getting up in the middle of the night at your apartment with 500 parking spaces and 15 chargers is even worse. What the _charger company_ wants is for you to move your car when it’s full. What _you_ want is to park and forget about it until you’re ready to drive away. I can easily see there being no good answer to that one. The answer compatible with traditional American thinking is that every parking space everywhere always has a charger. Right now the “few chargers and fewer EVs” model works. But the charger deployment _needs_ to lead the growth of EV users by a hefty and very much unprofitable fraction if we’re not to create a massive backlash. The meme “_My_ car needs a charge and I can’t find an unoccupied charger” will kill EV adoption far deader than “range anxiety” has so far. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/86 "2023-06-27T23:32:13Z")
Is it possible to redesign things so that a charger can be connected to multiple cars, but charge only one at a time? People can leave their cars connected without drawing electricity. The additional cost would mostly be in additional cabling, cheaper than adding additional chargers. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/87 "2023-06-27T23:55:05Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Is it possible to redesign things so that a charger can be connected to multiple cars, but charge only one at a time? Definitely, it was an option when we installed our home charger (checks calendar) six years ago. We went with a single hookup because manually moving the charge cord between two cars is not that difficult. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/88 "2023-06-28T00:15:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Is it possible to redesign things so that a charger can be connected to multiple cars, but charge only one at a time? People can leave their cars connected without drawing electricity. The additional cost would mostly be in additional cabling, cheaper than adding additional chargers. Anything is possible. Whether that becomes commonplace is the question. The fate of compressed air hoses & radiator water hoses at public gas stations does not suggest that 15 or 30 foot power cords to reach adjacent spaces will survive long contact with the general public. Who are selfish pigs at best, and vandalous ghouls more typically. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/89 "2023-06-28T00:25:40Z")
Superchargers basically already work this way. Each deployment doesn’t have enough capacity to charge all the vehicles at the full rate at once. Instead, it allocates capacity dynamically based on some algorithm. Presumably, preference is given to cars that arrive first, and when they start tailing off, the excess is given to those that come later. They could double the number of stalls with the same total capacity for something under 2x the cost, but there’s diminishing returns, and people will get annoyed if they think there are stalls free but it’s really at capacity already. I think it’s basically a non-issue. At a hotel, you use the L2 chargers and expect to leave them overnight. It’s only the rare situation where you’re at a fast DC charger and going somewhere that occupies just the right amount of time to make it inconvenient to move your car. At Superchargers, you can crank up the charge limit to 90% to give yourself a bit of time to avoid the idle fees. Though it’s a jerk move if it’s crowded there. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/90 "2023-06-28T00:28:06Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Though it’s a jerk move if it’s crowded there. Jerk moves are the norm amongst the rank and file citizenry. Caring for others requires being part of an elite and _very_ small shared fraternity. It works now. It won’t work with the bulk of drivers. Jumping that gap is up to the infrastructure people. I’m not suggesting the infrastructure companies can’t be incentivized to make that jump. But I do think there’s a lot of unwarranted optimism that the public at large will cover for their failures ensuring they can make a profit on the cheap. That ain’t gonna happen IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/91 "2023-06-28T00:32:26Z")
People are also lazy, though. And the Supercharger automatically sets the charge limit to 80% by default (and then charges you idle fees if you leave the car there). You can override it, but that’s just the little bit of extra friction you need to keep people on the good path. Sure, some people may abuse it, but it probably won’t be most. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/92 "2023-06-28T01:01:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Is it possible to redesign things so that a charger can be connected to multiple cars, but charge only one at a time? This is a common design for commercial level 2 chargers. For example, many level 2 dual charging ChargePoint pedestal might have one or two 6.6kW power feeds. If it has two feeds, then each car can get the full 6.6kW, but if it only has one, then if a single car is charging it gets 6.6kW, but if two are charging they each get 3.3kW. The main point is, there is lots of flexibility in how things are setup. Instead of thinking “this car needs to charge overnight” think “this car needs to get 35kWh by 7am”. That can be 4 hours at 8.8kW, 12 hours at 3kW, or any acceptable combination between there. There is a new Amazon warehouse near me with dozens of chargers in the parking lot (presumably for their electric delivery trucks). I’m very interested in how they have it setup. Presumably being new commercial construction, they just brought in a whole bunch of power. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/93 "2023-06-28T02:44:23Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Actually, you totally _do_ want to leave the car plugged in while you lunch; getting up from the middle of lunch to move the car is a total PITA. Getting up in the middle of the night at your apartment with 500 parking spaces and 15 chargers is even worse. The thing with Tesla Superchargers is that they _will_ charge you extra for staying plugged in once charged if the charger is busy, because the chargers are a scarce resource. IIRC it costs more to stay plugged in once charged than it would to be charging, thus incentivizing “move it!”. I wouldn’t be surprised to see this become a common business model. Indeed, as mentioned, current (sorry) laws tend to disallow charging by kWh, so connect time will be the default costing mechanism - indeed, fees without current are extra money for the provider. How much is an uniterrupted meal worth to you…? The advantage to L2 chargers is that they _can_ take a lot longer than L3/superchargers. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/94 "2023-06-28T03:55:15Z")
There are some technical fixes for the lack of charging spots that are being worked on. Robots that plug in and unplug cars, for example. And if the vehicle has to be in one of a limited number of spots, I’m sure they could program them to automatically move from a charging stall to another parking spot and vice versa. Essentially the same as the feature on Teslas that lets the driver call them from across the parking lot. ---
**Author:** ![Danger\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Danger\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/95 "2023-06-28T05:46:38Z")
I think the easiest solution here is just to have longer cables and make the cables automatically unlock once charging has finished. Then someone new arriving can just park next to it and unplug the cable. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/96 "2023-06-28T11:16:59Z")
Only partly in jest. Perhaps the solution for at least some people is to run a futures market for a charge. You buy contracts for supply of X charge at Y power at Z time and place. You could buy open contracts for emergency recharge, but they are not going to be cheap. Contracts for an overnight recharge will clearly be a lot cheaper. It will be in your interest to only use the cheaper contracts. Cheap contracts include the risk of being bumped, with supply happening at a later time. The supplier of charging stations will have some incentive to provide reserve charger capacity for traders selling the high priced contracts. But will also have a bread and butter income from selling less time critical recharges. Only works once the systems has reached a fairly large size - which it has not yet done. Since the price for delivery is fluid, there is no direct price per unit energy. You are generally buying energy from the owner of the charging network. We just wait for the modern incarnation of the Hunt brothers. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/97 "2023-06-28T16:07:15Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > I think the easiest solution here is just to have longer cables and make the cables automatically unlock once charging has finished. Then someone new arriving can just park next to it and unplug the cable. I’ve seen pictures of some Tesla superchargers where you can park on both sides of the pedestal, front and back. Thus even with their very short cables, each charger has 2 places to park by it. I don’t know if the phone app includes the ability to unlock the charge port remotely, or if the cable is unlocked regardless when charging is complete (never had to find out), but that would just be a software update. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/98 "2023-12-09T22:39:14Z")
There were some posts here about the shortage of lithium, but good news–massive lithium find in the Salton Sea in California: **A struggling California region is suddenly poised to become very, very rich** [https://www.sfgate.com/california/article/imperial-county-california-salton-sea-lithium-18527598.php](https://www.sfgate.com/california/article/imperial-county-california-salton-sea-lithium-18527598.php) > The LA Times climate journalist Sammy Roth, told KJZZ radio: “They found that there’s potentially enough lithium down there to supply batteries for 382 million electric vehicles, which is more, more vehicles than there are on the road in the United States today. So, if we could get all that lithium, that’d be huge.” > **[$540bn 'white gold' discovery at the bottom of giant lake could change history](https://www.indy100.com/science-tech/lithium-discovery-salton-lake-california)** > > A 'white gold' mine containing $540 billion in treasures has been discovered at the bottom of a giant lake in Southern California. The Salton Sea, which is the largest lake in the US state was being studied by scientists as part of research funded by... Although considering that this is California and the major environmental issues one wonders if and how long it will be for major mining to begin. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/99 "2023-12-09T23:10:08Z")
In one sense that location is a good place to have this find. The Salton sea is already such an eco-disaster area and only getting worse that you could hardly wreck it worse. Wreck it differently, sure. But worse? probably not. Being an endorheic basin at least any additional mine tailings that get into the water won’t go anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910/100 "2023-12-09T23:50:06Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > There were some posts here about the shortage of lithium, but good news–massive lithium find in the Salton Sea in California: I suppose that’s good news, but they’ve known for quite some time that the Salton Sea has lots of lithium. Several companies have been trying to figure out how to extract it economically for several years now. AFAIK, so far they’ve shipped exactly zero grams of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-of-vehicles-on-road-being-evs/977910.md?page=6)