# Make a case \*for\* hair metal **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024 "2010-05-28T02:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/21 "2010-05-28T16:01:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They were to metal what Kenny G is to jazz, or what Michael Bolton was to the blue – basically costumed pop. Sure. I think of hair metal as just power pop with a harder edge (and sometimes that edge isn’t that much harder, at all). In fact, some of those Poison records sound like they could have just as well been made by Cheap Trick. Hair metal was just fun pop music with great hooks and melodies. It’s rather silly to compare it to more serious forms of metal as hair metal has a completely different set of genre expectations and objectives. It’s just supposed to be (mostly) party music that doesn’t take itself too seriously. And sometimes, as a listener, that’s all I want. I didn’t much listen to metal of any form in the 80s, but looking back at the genre (mostly through games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band), I’ve come to the conclusion that the genre is undeservedly derided. There were a lot of pop songwriting gems in there, like “Talk Dirty to Me,” “Shout at the Devil,” “Round and Round,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/22 "2010-05-28T16:01:57Z")
> [@Lissener](#): > > I guess for me it’s that I get the impression that there are all these obviously skilled musicians who put all their creative energy, work really really hard, in an attempt to stay rigidly within a narrowly formed genre. Their goal seems to be to sound, overall, alike. Sure a lick here, a riff there, but only the occasional isolated detail shows any originality or individuality. Otherwise, it’s an insular musical clique. You’re not accepted within it if you stray too far from it. Of course there’s a true scotsman element to this view, but I think that element is self imposed by adherents to the genre. It is, ultimately, one of the most conservative genres in all of music. I don’t think that’s true at all. . It’s true of the recording industry that they want pop bands to stay comfortable and predictable, but the serious metal musicians I knew (and I was one of them) tended to be highly eclectic and experimental. Sounding unique was the goal. There were some bands/musicians who were happy to just sound generic, but, in my experience, they weren’t all that serious about the music to begin with. The bands were just something they did for fun or to try to get chicks. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/23 "2010-05-28T16:07:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure. I think of hair metal as just power pop with a harder edge (and sometimes that edge isn’t that much harder, at all). In fact, some of those Poison records sound like they could have just as well been made by Cheap Trick. OMG did you just dis Cheap Trick? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/24 "2010-05-28T16:08:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > OMG did you just dis Cheap Trick? No, I praised Poison. edit: OK, I’m assuming you were being tongue-in-cheek there. Anyhow, Poison was one of those bands I _hated_ in elementary school. I’ve done a critical re-evaluation of them and now I think they’re a lot better than I initially gave them credit for. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/25 "2010-05-28T16:08:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think that’s true at all. . It’s true of the recording industry that they want pop bands to stay comfortable and predictable, but the serious metal musicians I knew (and I was one of them) tended to be highly eclectic and experimental. Sounding unique was the goal. Again, yes: originality under a microscope. But still within a rigidly defined overall style. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/26 "2010-05-28T16:09:53Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I guess for me it’s that I get the impression that there are all these obviously skilled musicians who put all their creative energy, work really really hard, in an attempt to stay rigidly within a narrowly formed genre. Their goal seems to be to sound, overall, alike. Sure a lick here, a riff there, but only the occasional isolated detail shows any originality or individuality. Otherwise, it’s an insular musical clique. You’re not accepted within it if you stray too far from it. Of course there’s a true scotsman element to this view, but I think that element is self imposed by adherents to the genre. It is, ultimately, one of the most conservative genres in all of music. Understand that during the late 80’s record companies were signing _ **ANYONE** _ that simply “looked the part,” then had their producers simply plug them into the formula: one “rocker,” followed immediately with a power ballad-- sell a million records to screaming teenage girls and long-haired poser dudes. Hence the **Trixter** s, **Ugly Kid Joe** s, and **Slaughter** s, and those were some of the ones who “made it,” as opposed to the more obscure (and even more terrible) ones like **Tuff** , **Diamond Rexx** , or **Hericane Alice** , among countless others. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/27 "2010-05-28T16:23:05Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Understand that during the late 80’s record companies were signing _ **ANYONE** _ that simply “looked the part,” then had their producers simply plug them into the formula: one “rocker,” followed immediately with a power ballad-- sell a million records to screaming teenage girls and long-haired poser dudes. Hence the **Trixter** s, **Ugly Kid Joe** s, and **Slaughter** s, and those were some of the ones who “made it,” as opposed to the more obscure (and even more terrible) ones like **Tuff** , **Diamond Rexx** , or **Hericane Alice** , among countless others. Yeah. Those were not the bands that were part of the seminars Alex gave me on slow saturday mornings at the record store. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/28 "2010-05-28T16:31:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, I praised Poison. > > edit: OK, I’m assuming you were being tongue-in-cheek there. Anyhow, Poison was one of those bands I _hated_ in elementary school. I’ve done a critical re-evaluation of them and now I think they’re a lot better than I initially gave them credit for. \*\*puly \*\*- I’m with \*\*Bo \*\*here, I think. You’re not dissing Cheap Trick, are you? I love their core tracks - they aren’t part of the 80’s hair metal conversation, but worthy of tradition-of-Big-Star respect, IMHO. I normally think of our tastes as heavily overlapped, so I thought I would check in… …back to your regularly scheduled thread. If “Is Cheap Trick worthy”? is a worthy enough topic, it can be moved to a different thread… ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/29 "2010-05-28T16:36:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > In fact, some of those Poison records sound like they could have just as well been made by Cheap Trick. Hell, _Talk Dirty To Me_ could (musically) be a near note-for-note ripoff of _[She’s Tight](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiSypDGFLVo)_. And as a bonus, Faster Pussycat just about did a line-by-line cribbing of the first verse to write _Bathroom Wall_ (Note: lest anyone think I’m slagging anything here, ripping off is simply part of the game – I fricking love every one of those tunes). The thing about hair metal was that it wasn’t really about the music. Sure, that had it’s part, but it was more about the look, the moves, the attitude. Of course C.C. DeVille wrote simplistic riffs – more technically challenging riffs would’ve gotten in the way of the spin-kicks, somersaults and duck-walks. For me, the hair metal scene will always be about the soundtrack of an important part of my life. That scene blew up right around the time I started hanging out on the Seaside Heights strip and going to clubs and bars – it was a _happening_. The actual music was secondary – the attitude was the important thing. It was all about sex, partying, sex, stirring up shit, and sex. And it was fricking awesome. You want case for hair metal as a flat-out music genre? Can’t really help you there. The scene definitely put out a few legitimate artists who the chops behind the hairspray, but they definitely were the exception. The fluff-over-substance crowd was what ruled – and that was fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/30 "2010-05-28T16:36:49Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Again, yes: originality under a microscope. But still within a rigidly defined overall style. That is a rather silly point as the vast majority of music fits into a rigidly defined style. The fact is that metal had way more variation and originality than the rest of popular music genres at the time. In the 80’s, metals glory years, you had bands like Guns ‘N’ Roses touring with Metallica. Warrant to Slayer. There is a huge difference and if you cannot hear it, well that isn’t the musicians fault. Slee ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/31 "2010-05-28T16:40:00Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You’re not dissing Cheap Trick, are you? Heck no! I was comparing Poison with one of the most respected power pop bands: Cheap Trick. Who doesn’t like Cheap Trick? Since it seems my statement has caused confusion, this is how the sentence > [@](#): > > In fact, some of those Poison records sound like they could have just as well been made by Cheap Trick. is meant to be parsed: In fact, some of those “shitty” hair metal records actually are not at all that shitty and could have just as well been composed and performed by a very respected power pop band. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/32 "2010-05-28T16:40:02Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I guess for me it’s that I get the impression that there are all these obviously skilled musicians who put all their creative energy, work really really hard, in an attempt to stay rigidly within a narrowly formed genre. Their goal seems to be to sound, overall, alike. Sure a lick here, a riff there, but only the occasional isolated detail shows any originality or individuality. Otherwise, it’s an insular musical clique. You’re not accepted within it if you stray too far from it. Of course there’s a true scotsman element to this view, but I think that element is self imposed by adherents to the genre. It is, ultimately, one of the most conservative genres in all of music. What you just said right there could be used (and often _is_ used) to describe the metal genre as a whole, and not just the much-maligned hair metal offshoot. Or, I dunno, maybe that was your intent? ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/33 "2010-05-28T16:42:12Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There were a lot of pop songwriting gems in there, like “Talk Dirty to Me,” “Shout at the Devil,” “Round and Round,” etc. “Round and Round” is the song I always think of when this topic comes up. I’ve never been a Ratt fan, but the song is a fine pop song dressed up in 80’s metal. You could dress the song up in any pop-oriented genre (modern country, 50’s r&r, etc.) and it would do fine. Writing a catchy song is not easy and the ones that succeed deserve some acknowledgement. > [@DCnDC](#): > > Understand that during the late 80’s record companies were signing _ **ANYONE** _ that simply “looked the part,” then had their producers simply plug them into the formula: one “rocker,” followed immediately with a power ballad-- sell a million records to screaming teenage girls and long-haired poser dudes. Hence the **Trixter** s, **Ugly Kid Joe** s, and **Slaughter** s, and those were some of the ones who “made it,” as opposed to the more obscure (and even more terrible) ones like **Tuff** , **Diamond Rexx** , or **Hericane Alice** , among countless others. Exactly. Once we get old enough to forget all of the trash (and there was plenty), then the sub-genre will be reflected upon like any other pop genre. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/34 "2010-05-28T16:43:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Again, yes: originality under a microscope. But still within a rigidly defined overall style. Okay, you did mean metal as a whole. Cool. And I’m not so sure that it’s the most conservative genre in that regard. Bluegrass and swing, as examples, are pretty damned rigid in their own right. But that’s a topic for another thread, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/35 "2010-05-28T16:44:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Heck no! I was comparing Poison with one of the most respected power pop bands: Cheap Trick. Who doesn’t like Cheap Trick? Cheap Trick is fine. Although I think radio stations could give “Surrender” a rest for a while. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/36 "2010-05-28T16:48:13Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > And I’m not so sure that it’s the most conservative genre in that regard. Bluegrass and swing, as examples, are pretty damned rigid in their own right. But that’s a topic for another thread. Right? Not even close. Hell, 80% of all the (true)blues is essentially the same song. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/37 "2010-05-28T16:51:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The guitarist for White Lion was actually pretty interesting at times. You might have had to hunt around a bit, but there really were some solid guitarists in the genre – Warren DiMartini (Ratt) and Reb Beach (Winger) are two examples. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/38 "2010-05-28T16:53:13Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Right? Not even close. Hell, 80% of all the (true)blues is essentially the same song. Agreed, most definitely. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/39 "2010-05-28T16:55:28Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > You might have had to hunt around a bit, but there really were some solid guitarists in the genre – Warren DiMartini (Ratt) and Reb Beach (Winger) are two examples. Nuno Bettencourt? (Not a guitar player, so I don’t really know if he’s considered to be all that good or not.) I do know Paul Gilbert was in Mr. Big. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/40 "2010-05-28T16:57:29Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > You might have had to hunt around a bit, but there really were some solid guitarists in the genre – Warren DiMartini (Ratt) and Reb Beach (Winger) are two examples. Actually, I think part of the problem the genre has it that this was really the first music made by people who had grown up with guitar heroes. Hair metal doesn’t lack competent guitarists at all, but because of the era they came of age in, and the place (SoCal for many), there was a big focus on wanking with a guitar (or appearing to). The whole scene was so heavily about being seen, and about doing the things they thought their guitar heroes also did. For a lot of these guys, the music was just there for stuarting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024.md?page=3)