# Make a case \*for\* hair metal **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024 "2010-05-28T02:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/41 "2010-05-28T16:58:32Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Nuno Bettencourt? (Not a guitar player, so I don’t really know if he’s considered to be all that good or not.) I do know Paul Gilbert was in Mr. Big. Bettencourt had a great rep among the guitarists I used to run with. I think Mr. Big stressed the musicianship more than the look/attitude thing. Besides the respected Glbert, they had an all-time hard-rock bassist in Billy Sheehan. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/42 "2010-05-28T17:00:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hair metal doesn’t lack competent guitarists at all, but because of the era they came of age in, and the place (SoCal for many), there was a big focus on wanking with a guitar (or appearing to). The whole scene was so heavily about being seen, and about doing the things they thought their guitar heroes also did. For a lot of these guys, the music was just there for stuarting. Good point. And when these guys later on did solo work, studio work, or work for less commercial bands, they really did branch out musically and show what they were capable of. All the while selling A LOT fewer records/CDs 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/43 "2010-05-28T17:01:34Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I think Mr. Big stressed the musicianship more than the look/attitude think. Besides the respected Glbert, they had an all-time hard-rock bassist in Billy Sheehan. Problem is, they still sucked. Simply applied the same formula as everyone else. Like how Yngwie was(and remains) a technically astounding player, but his bands have always been god-awful. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/44 "2010-05-28T17:06:31Z")
Nuno was considered pretty decent for a lame band. He was a tab mag staple. I’m not sure Mr. Big really qualified as a hair band. They were conceived as sort of a shredder supergroup composed of Shrapnel Records veterans. They did end up being more pop than than shred, but they were basically shredders trying to sell themselves as pop rather than popsters selling themselves as metal. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/45 "2010-05-28T18:24:54Z")
I’ve always wondered about two bands and whether they fit into hair metal. First one being GNR, mentioned earlier in the thread. If hair metal as a genre is considered to be mostly about sex and cocaine, GNR was S&M and heroin. But they sure did look the part, at least at first–once Axl straightened out his hair, they were a little less glammy. The music seemed just a little bit heavier and harder-hitting, albeit just as catchy. I have a hard time categorizing them as hair metal, but I don’t know what else they’d be. The other is Van Halen. Campy showmanship, great pop tunes, but they weren’t so much with the eye makeup and the Aquanet. And although I’m not a guitarist, I’ve heard good things about that Eddie Van Halen dude. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/46 "2010-05-28T18:58:41Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I’ve always wondered about two bands and whether they fit into hair metal. > > First one being GNR, mentioned earlier in the thread. If hair metal as a genre is considered to be mostly about sex and cocaine, GNR was S&M and heroin. But they sure did look the part, at least at first–once Axl straightened out his hair, they were a little less glammy. The music seemed just a little bit heavier and harder-hitting, albeit just as catchy. I have a hard time categorizing them as hair metal, but I don’t know what else they’d be. > > The other is Van Halen. Campy showmanship, great pop tunes, but they weren’t so much with the eye makeup and the Aquanet. And although I’m not a guitarist, I’ve heard good things about that Eddie Van Halen dude. VH is at the epi-center for the beginnings of hair metal, but, no, they are hard rock. Even though hair-metalers cop many of Eddie’s moves and the VH blueprint, they rarely brought in the other influences that VH did. GnR snuck onto people’s radars as hair metal with the Welcome to the Jungle look, but are much more classic hard rock in the tradition of Aerosmith… ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/47 "2010-05-28T19:02:43Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I’ve always wondered about two bands and whether they fit into hair metal. > > First one being GNR, mentioned earlier in the thread. If hair metal as a genre is considered to be mostly about sex and cocaine, GNR was S&M and heroin. But they sure did look the part, at least at first–once Axl straightened out his hair, they were a little less glammy. The music seemed just a little bit heavier and harder-hitting, albeit just as catchy. I have a hard time categorizing them as hair metal, but I don’t know what else they’d be. > > The other is Van Halen. Campy showmanship, great pop tunes, but they weren’t so much with the eye makeup and the Aquanet. And although I’m not a guitarist, I’ve heard good things about that Eddie Van Halen dude. You can look at it this way. GnR is the last gasp of the hair metal band. They are the hair metal band that saw the limitations and posing for what it was, and wanted to be more than that. And at least on _Appetite_, they nailed the shit outta that. They were like the first band to successfully “graduate” from hair metal, maybe. Van Halen was the archetypical hard rock band for more than one kid who grew up with a guitar hero. They were from the same place, had much the same attitude (if not the makeup and frilly pastel clothes), and played an over-the-top brand of pop music, full of bombast and swagger. Basically, you can take The New York Dolls and Van Halen and -BAM!- you got hair metal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/48 "2010-05-28T19:09:28Z")
I’d say the same thing. Axl had some glam influences (notably Hanoi Rocks), but the musicality of the band was pretty solidly blues based rock and hard rock – Stones, Aerosmith, AC/DC – bands like that. It was olny Axl’s early look that made them appear at all like hair metal. Slash and Izzy were straight up rock. Van Halen was kind of an entity unto itself – DLR certainly had his influence on the hair metal genre – but at the end of the day, those bands (both with Roth and Hagar) were just vehicles for a guitar virtuoso. Eddie was so idiosyncratic and original as a player that he’s not really generically classifiable. He always says that Eric Clapton was his guitar idol, but I’ll be damned if I can hear it in his playing. He actually reminds me of John Coltrane in his phrasing and melody more than anyone else, but that could just be coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/49 "2010-05-28T19:20:38Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > That is a rather silly point as the vast majority of music fits into a rigidly defined style. The fact is that metal had way more variation and originality than the rest of popular music genres at the time. In the 80’s, metals glory years, you had bands like Guns ‘N’ Roses touring with Metallica. Warrant to Slayer. There is a huge difference and if you cannot hear it, well that isn’t the musicians fault. > > Slee I disagree pretty strongly. I think that the boundaries within which one was “allowed” to be original and still be a true scotsman were pretty narrowly and rigidly drawn. But of course the higher-power microscope you view the details under, the more variety they appear to have. Under enough magnification, any minute difference can seem like your “huge difference.” YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/50 "2010-05-28T19:23:57Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Okay, you did mean metal as a whole. Cool. > > And I’m not so sure that it’s the most conservative genre in that regard. Bluegrass and swing, as examples, are pretty damned rigid in their own right. But that’s a topic for another thread, I suppose. I agree, but it seems to me that they’re “dead” genres, like Latin is a dead language; the rules were long ago set in stone. But that’s OK: their adherents value nostalgia itself to a certain degree–reliving the past, as opposed to moving forward into the stylistic future, to spout a pompous-sounding phrase. Of course their influences continue to be felt, but I think bluegrass music is a different fish from bluegrass-influenced music. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/51 "2010-05-28T19:25:36Z")
Bluegrass is exploding right now. Some of it is “bluegrass influenced” - whatever. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/52 "2010-05-28T19:26:43Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Right? Not even close. Hell, 80% of all the (true)blues is essentially the same song. I agree, with the same caveat as above. And of course any music that stands out as a specific genre will have the same limitations, to varying degrees. I pretty much covered that when I said “one of the most conservative,” rather than “THE most conservative.” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/53 "2010-05-28T19:33:22Z")
And again, musical genres are like animal/plant species, or a language as it evolves: there are no inflexible boundaries or bright lines. So pointing that out is kind of beside the point; it’s a given. That doesn’t mean the genre labels, applied after the fact, are not valuable in discussion. But nothing anyone says in such a discussion can be absolute or inarguable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/54 "2010-05-28T19:38:36Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I disagree pretty strongly. I think that the boundaries within which one was “allowed” to be original and still be a true scotsman were pretty narrowly and rigidly drawn. But of course the higher-power microscope you view the details under, the more variety they appear to have. Under enough magnification, any minute difference can seem like your “huge difference.” YMMV of course. What “boundaries” are you referring to with metal? I know music pretty well, I know metal inside and out, and the boundaries are extremely loose. Composition, form, melody, harmony, time, are all as open to personal interpretation as they are in jazz. In fact, I think jazz is the closest analogy to metal. Would you accuse the great jazz musicians of conforing to rigid genre? If metal has a commonality, it’s the "heaviness’ of a distorted electric guitar, an emphasi on riffing and general aggression, but even that’s not set in stone (a lot of metal bands will use accoustic guitars or other instruments to add color or dynamic variation). I see FAR more roaming territory in metal than I do in blues or country or certainly pop. ---
**Author:** ![Pduol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6bbea6/32.png) [@Pduol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pduol)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/55 "2010-05-28T19:49:17Z")
[My favorite hair metal band](http://img143.imageshack.us/i/deathtonguepn9.jpg/) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/56 "2010-05-28T19:55:51Z")
> [@Pduol](#): > > [My favorite hair metal band](http://img143.imageshack.us/i/deathtonguepn9.jpg/) > 😃 [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ubgwVwK0SPg/hqdefault.jpg "Billy and the Boingers, U Stink But I (Heart) U") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubgwVwK0SPg) ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/57 "2010-05-28T20:13:22Z")
> [@Pduol](#): > > [My favorite hair metal band](http://img143.imageshack.us/i/deathtonguepn9.jpg/) > 😃 FTW! ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/58 "2010-05-28T21:31:01Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I disagree pretty strongly. I think that the boundaries within which one was “allowed” to be original and still be a true scotsman were pretty narrowly and rigidly drawn. But of course the higher-power microscope you view the details under, the more variety they appear to have. Under enough magnification, any minute difference can seem like your “huge difference.” YMMV of course. Can you hear the difference between [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8kQ3MKMeDc&feature=fvst), [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMqjGywYOI8&feature=PlayList&p=C6BA18D66762C86E&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=1), [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkoPfV5tjWo'%5B/URL)and [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oobDQ0vdm8M)?\* All the same instruments, vastly different styles and attitudes. Heck, my \*Mom \*can tell the difference. At least she could when I was growing up. She hated Slayer. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Slayer wants to kill you, Poison wants to get laid, Racer X just loves playing fast intricate music and Guns 'n Roses is all about the song. That little list doesn’t even get into other genres in metal. Slee, - I was also going to link to an Yngwie tune, but the man is such an ass I can’t make myself do it. Heck of a guitarist though.. Side note, my band recorded a tune for Billy and the Boingers. There was a contest for the C.D. We recorded a tune for the contest, quite heavy, that included a tuba solo. We didn’t get in but the song was pretty damned funny. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/59 "2010-05-28T22:10:27Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Side note, my band recorded a tune for Billy and the Boingers. There was a contest for the C.D. We recorded a tune for the contest, quite heavy, that included a tuba solo. We didn’t get in but the song was pretty damned funny. Can you provide a link? That’d be cool as fuck to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024/60 "2010-05-28T22:19:49Z")
Note to self: every genre of music–or any artform–has aficionados who are unwilling to brook any discussion that’s not awed, unqualified praise. My bad, I knew that. Moving on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-case-for-hair-metal/541024.md?page=4)