# Make a stupid choice with a stupid person and you're surprised when stupidity ensues? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399 "2009-03-31T05:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/61 "2009-03-31T16:52:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > How do you figure? She didn’t deem him suitable or a life-partner. She chose to take a chance and have sex that might result in a pregnancy, and had a child based on the outcome of her gamble. As **Diogenes** mentions, she deemed him to be suitable as a father by virtue of the fact that she had sex with him. That choice is inherent in the choice to have sex, because birth control is not 100% reliable (as she discovered). And all the more because she chose not to abort. Getting drunk and “rolling the dice” means accepting a small but non-zero chance that it will come up snake eyes (from your POV), or (from an evolutionary POV) hitting the jackpot. But that’s the point - we evolved to roll the dice, because our ancestors did, and that meant they had more children than otherwise. Contraception has reduced that pressure, but certainly not eliminated it. And has not eliminated it much, if at all, on people who don’t even make the effort. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/62 "2009-03-31T16:54:06Z")
And so I’ll ask you as well, **Dio** , have you \*really \*\*\*\*never \*\*\*had sex with someone who you’d have preferred to NOT marry and/or have children with? > [@Shodan](#): > > As Diogenes mentions, she deemed him to be suitable as a father by virtue of the fact that she had sex with him. No, I deemed him suitable as a sex partner. I am not, any more than you are, the unthinking sum of my biological functions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/63 "2009-03-31T16:56:00Z")
If you mean me, no, I haven’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/64 "2009-03-31T16:56:55Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And so I’ll ask you as well, have you \*really \*\*\*\*never \*\*\*had sex with someone who you’d have preferred to NOT marry and/or have children with? Sure I have, when I was young and stupid, but I drove drunk when I was young and stupid too. That doesn’t mean I lose the right forever to say that driving drunk is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/65 "2009-03-31T16:59:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure I have, when I was young and stupid, but I drove drunk when I was young and stupid too. That doesn’t mean I lose the right forever to say that driving drunk is stupid. No, you don’t. But it’d be nice if you acknowledged the difference between “smart” and “lucky”. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/66 "2009-03-31T17:10:48Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > And yet here in the real world, people’s circumstances change. I may lose my job. Ditto that for my husband. I meant conceiving a child while currently on welfare. > [@Beadalin](#): > > People may truly believe that having someone to love and love them unconditionally will make their life bearable. > > And/or they believe that having a baby will create a permanent link to someone they would otherwise lose completely. > > And/or their birth control failed and they can’t handle an abortion. Or they decide to give up the baby to adoption but change their minds when the time comes. > > Or any combination of factors that lead, down the road, to a single mother having the gall to complain every so often that their kid isn’t getting supported. > > You may not understand or condone any of those reasons I think there is a huge, HUGE difference between understanding and condoning… and asking me to pay for someone else’s choices. You may not understand (nor condone) why I want to sit naked under a waterfall all day playing bongos. But… would you be willing to support me? Give me free housing? Food stamps? Welfare? I am not, at all, discrediting, disagreeing, disbelieving, or just plain dissing anyone’s choice to have children. My objection is when they want me to pay to support them, and the children, through welfare. (Again, when the child is conceived while the mother and/or father are currently on welfare.) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/67 "2009-03-31T17:12:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As **Diogenes** mentions, she deemed him to be suitable as a father by virtue of the fact that she had sex with him. You’re confusing negligence with intention. Someone who accidentally gets hit by a bus doesn’t intend to die, they just intended to cross the street. We get your point, okay? People who have sex risk, knowingly (or in some cases unknowingly), that the other person will become the parent of their child. Arguably, if you consider it in the paradigm of genes acting as if they have their own agendas, then having sex with someone means that enough of your genes voted that the other person’s genes were a good vector to spread themselves. But a large portion of behavior seems independent from genes, so we really aren’t the direct sum of our genetic inputs. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/68 "2009-03-31T17:13:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We could always go the Indian route of forcible sterilization. That worked well. I hope you’re being sarcastic, but unfortunately you made a good point. Yes. It did work well. Now didn’t it? Unfortunately, sterilization is usually irreversable. That’s why I can’t condone it. Someone who can’t afford to raise a child \*right now \*might be able to in several years. And they \*should \*be able to, \*when \*they are able to. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/69 "2009-03-31T17:18:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Go fuck yourself, you fucking prick. [QUOTE=Ed Zotti] Restricted language in the Pit * * * The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. fuck you and variants, e.g., go fuck yourself [/QUOTE] Mods, I will be expecting the warning for \*\*Guinastasia \*\*post haste, please. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/70 "2009-03-31T17:23:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As **Diogenes** mentions, she deemed him to be suitable as a father by virtue of the fact that she had sex with him. That choice is inherent in the choice to have sex, because birth control is not 100% reliable (as she discovered). And all the more because she chose not to abort. > > Getting drunk and “rolling the dice” means accepting a small but non-zero chance that it will come up snake eyes (from your POV), or (from an evolutionary POV) hitting the jackpot. > > But that’s the point - we evolved to roll the dice, because our ancestors did, and that meant they had more children than otherwise. Contraception has reduced that pressure, but certainly not eliminated it. And has not eliminated it much, if at all, on people who don’t even make the effort. > > Regards, > Shodan No way. She deemed him suitable to fuck. Not to be a father and not to be a partner for anything but sex. Accepting a consequence is not the same as deeming someone suitable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/71 "2009-03-31T17:32:44Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > You’re confusing negligence with intention. Someone who accidentally gets hit by a bus doesn’t intend to die, they just intended to cross the street. We get your point, okay? People who have sex risk, knowingly (or in some cases unknowingly), that the other person will become the parent of their child. But if they cross the street negligently (e.g. they run straight out into traffic without looking or using a crosswalk) and they get nailed, then it’s not just an unfortunate accident, but a result of an intentional action. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/72 "2009-03-31T17:37:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Yes. It did work well. Now didn’t it? Uh, no, actually. It made the population extremely fearful of any form of birth control, and made it that much harder for the government to educate people in the use of condoms, hormonal BC, and the like. The only reason India’s population growth has been kept somewhat manageable since is a free, no-questions-asked abortion policy, which has itself had the unfortunate side effect of a big drop in female live births relative to male ones. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/73 "2009-03-31T17:37:57Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No way. She deemed him suitable to fuck. Not to be a father and not to be a partner for anything but sex. Accepting a consequence is not the same as deeming someone suitable. You can’t separate the consequences from the motivation that way. That’s like the drunk driver saying he wasn’t choosing to get arrested, he was just chosing to drive home. If you’re already deciding that pregnancy is an acceptable risk, then, unless you’ve already decided you will terminate any potential pregnancy, you’re _ipso facto_ deciding that the guy doing the siring is an acceptable father. It’s childish to dispute that. It may not be a _cognizant_ choice, but it’s an undeniable one. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/74 "2009-03-31T17:40:38Z")
And so because you’ve made the exact same choice and been lucky, you feel perfectly comfortable calling other people stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/75 "2009-03-31T17:44:10Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > No way. She deemed him suitable to fuck. Not to be a father and not to be a partner for anything but sex. As she found out, there is no way to eliminate the second and keep the first with 100% certainty. You can pretend things are otherwise, but (as discovered) that doesn’t change anything. As I said, evolution works on what happens, and cares nothing about what should happen. Regards, Shodan ETA - maybe I will just let **Diogenes** do my arguing for a while. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/76 "2009-03-31T17:45:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can’t separate the consequences from the motivation that way. That’s like the drunk driver saying he wasn’t choosing to get arrested, he was just chosing to drive home. If you’re already deciding that pregnancy is an acceptable risk, then, unless you’ve already decided you will terminate any potential pregnancy, you’re _ipso facto_ deciding that the guy doing the siring is an acceptable father. It’s childish to dispute that. It may not be a _cognizant_ choice, but it’s an undeniable one. The fact that you _can_ abort the pregnancy (whether you choose to or not)means the unspoken choice of suitability as a father is no longer on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/77 "2009-03-31T17:46:18Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And so because you’ve made the exact same choice and been lucky, you feel perfectly comfortable calling other people stupid? I’d be equally comfortable saying it if I _hadn’t_ been lucky. I go back to the drunk driving analogy. Just because I’ve done something risky and been lucky doesn’t mean it’s not still risky or that I can’t tell other people it’s risky. I got away with both things because I was fortunate, not because I was smart. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/78 "2009-03-31T17:49:38Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The fact that you _can_ abort the pregnancy (whether you choose to or not)means the unspoken choice of suitability as a father is no longer on the table. Hence my qualification above, “…unless you’ve already decided you will terminate any potential pregnancy…” If abortion is not on the table for you, then you’ve chosen a potential father. At the very least, you have decided that it’s acceptable for this guy to get you pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/79 "2009-03-31T17:59:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Uh, no, actually. > > It made the population extremely fearful of any form of birth control, and made it that much harder for the government to educate people in the use of condoms, hormonal BC, and the like. > > The only reason India’s population growth has been kept somewhat manageable since is a free, no-questions-asked abortion policy, which has itself had the unfortunate side effect of a big drop in female live births relative to male ones. I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant Native Americans (American Indians), not the continent of India. Sorry, my mistake. I’m not aware of factual evidence of forced sterilization used against Native Americans, but have heard rumor (urban legend?). I thought that’s what you were referencing. My reply was meant to convey that yes, forced sterilization (among other things, in the distant past) decimated the Native American population. So yes, it did “work” (in one horrible sense of the word). ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/80 "2009-03-31T18:13:04Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And so I’ll ask you as well, **Dio** , have you \*really \*\*\*\*never \*\*\*had sex with someone who you’d have preferred to NOT marry and/or have children with? I’d like to ask this: Are people who HAVEN’T had sex with anyone they didn’t want to marry or have children with allowed to hold the opinion that people who can’t support a baby alone shouldn’t fuck losers? Because I haven’t. Not that I didn’t have the opportunity, either; I dodged a few bullets, I’m sure. I’ve only had sex with my husband, and yes before we were even engaged. But I’d rejected the “losers” on the grounds that I didn’t want that sort of entanglement, and I (correctly, I think, having known him now for 20+ years) was confident that the future Mr. S was the right person with whom to share the responsibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399.md?page=5)