# Make a stupid choice with a stupid person and you're surprised when stupidity ensues? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399 "2009-03-31T05:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/81 "2009-03-31T18:14:00Z")
What I don’t understand is the absolute certainty – yes, bordering on sanctimony – that the woman under discussion, and others like her, knew the guy(s) was a loser before they had sex with him (them). As if most women look at someone who is _at that time_ unemployed, lazy, heartless, avoidant, and think _Mmmhmm, lay me down, baby_. ISTM obviously much more likely that the woman thought she was looking at a decent prospect at the time, which is why she undertook to try to have a relationship with him. So what strikes me as extra-super-primo judgey, is evaluating the choices she made _then_ by the information we have _now_. And then condemning her for them. If in fact you do NOT think or know that you have made a stupid choice, and you do NOT think or know that you were with a stupid person, then I think you have every right in the world to be very surprised when stupidity ensues. My experience with women seeking child support, and I’ve had quite a bit, is that they do NOT tend to be the stereotypical “Welfare Queen” who’s had the fourth child with the same guy so that she can get a bigger check as she lays around sucking on the public teat. Go ahead and condemn that (fictional) woman; no doubt she deserves it. But the women I have worked with have found that they end up with a child or children with a man they believed, or at least hoped, would support those children, and have been harshly disabused of that notion. A failure to pay child support by those men has a direct negative impact on the lives of the children in question, because we are NOT talking about women with the financial ability to give their kids a great life on their own. Child support is for the benefit of the child. If, as **Dio** says, “choosing to have potentially procreative sex (“protected” or not) is a choice to get pregnant” – a position I think is complete BS, BTW – then men, no less than women, are making that choice and men, no less than women, must bear responsibility for the results. So if my sympathy has to be apportioned between the woman who is raising the kids and trying to support them (even if venting on Facebook), or the deadbeat MF who is not paying to support them – I’ll go with Facebook Mom, thanks, if for no other reason than that I don’t think we can say, 13 years on, how “stupid” she was back then. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/82 "2009-03-31T18:31:41Z")
If more women agreed to anal this would be a far smaller problem than it is now! ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/83 "2009-03-31T18:35:33Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > I’d like to ask this: Are people who HAVEN’T had sex with anyone they didn’t want to marry or have children with allowed to hold the opinion that people who can’t support a baby alone shouldn’t fuck losers? Sure. It’s not any less sanctimonious, but at least it’s not hypocritical. Congratulations and enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/84 "2009-03-31T18:37:55Z")
Between this and the **Rand Rover** thread, **Jodi** is my new hero. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/85 "2009-03-31T18:40:07Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Mods, I will be expecting the warning for \*\*Guinastasia \*\*post haste, please. Tell you what. I’ll start with one for you for junior modding. Don’t do this again. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/86 "2009-03-31T18:48:49Z")
Despite his junior modding, \*\*Jimmy Joe Meager \*\* has a point. [QUOTE=Restricted language in the Pit] The following expressions should not be directed at other posters. * * * fuck you and variants, e.g., go fuck yourself, fuck off and die [/QUOTE] [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Reminder folks: The F word is on the list. Please choose a different word next time. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/87 "2009-03-31T18:49:11Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > What I don’t understand is the absolute certainty – yes, bordering on sanctimony – that the woman under discussion, and others like her, knew the guy(s) was a loser before they had sex with him (them). As if most women look at someone who is _at that time_ unemployed, lazy, heartless, avoidant, and think _Mmmhmm, lay me down, baby_. ISTM obviously much more likely that the woman thought she was looking at a decent prospect at the time, which is why she undertook to try to have a relationship with him. So what strikes me as extra-super-primo judgey, is evaluating the choices she made _then_ by the information we have _now_. And then condemning her for them. If in fact you do NOT think or know that you have made a stupid choice, and you do NOT think or know that you were with a stupid person, then I think you have every right in the world to be very surprised when stupidity ensues. If you’re having procreative sex with someone you don’t know anything about, that’s still just as stupid as doing it with someone you know is a loser. > [@](#): > > My experience with women seeking child support, and I’ve had quite a bit, is that they do NOT tend to be the stereotypical “Welfare Queen” who’s had the fourth child with the same guy so that she can get a bigger check as she lays around sucking on the public teat. Go ahead and condemn that (fictional) woman; no doubt she deserves it. But the women I have worked with have found that they end up with a child or children with a man they believed, or at least hoped, would support those children, and have been harshly disabused of that notion. A failure to pay child support by those men has a direct negative impact on the lives of the children in question, because we are NOT talking about women with the financial ability to give their kids a great life on their own. > > Child support is for the benefit of the child. If, as **Dio** says, “choosing to have potentially procreative sex (“protected” or not) is a choice to get pregnant” – a position I think is complete BS, BTW – then men, no less than women, are making that choice and men, no less than women, must bear responsibility for the results. None of this discussion has anything to do with the right to child support. Your last paragraph above is something that I’ve said over and over again. You are attacking a position that has not been proffered here. No one is saying that the guy should have to pay. Of course he should have to pay. I’ve been as vocal as anyone on this board about the responsibility of men to take responsibility for their offspring. That has nothing to do with the discussion. My positin in this particular thread simply has to do with expressing irritation with women (or men, for that matter) who expect others to feel sympathy for their own stupid choices. Saying I think they made a stuoid choice is not the same as saying the person who made the stupid choice _with_ them should be off the hook for his own responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/88 "2009-03-31T19:05:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Between this and the **Rand Rover** thread, **Jodi** is my new hero. I dunno. She drops down a notch on my list for even participating in the Rand Rover thread. (Only kidding, Jodi.) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/89 "2009-03-31T19:15:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you’re having procreative sex with someone you don’t know anything about, that’s still just as stupid as doing it with someone you know is a loser. Exactly what I was thinking. I keep hearing “but but! She didn’t know he was a loser when she let him impregnate her!! So she’s the victim!” … “She was hoping he would turn out to be a good guy!” … “But he _WAS_ a good guy at the time, it was only later that he turned into a loser!” For some reason these excuses don’t inspire much sympathy. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of this discussion has anything to do with the right to child support… > You are attacking a position that has not been proffered here. No one is saying that the guy should have to pay. Of course he should have to pay. Dio is right. Nowhere did I ever say the father should not have to pay. For example: [QUOTE=nyctea scandiaca] Yes the guy is a scumbag for not supporting his child. But he was probably a scumbag before he fathered your child. Yes your child is entitled to support from their father Just to clarify: it’s the children who are the victims. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/90 "2009-03-31T19:18:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > From the whining about child support. If you can’t support a baby without child support, don’t fuck losers. Good advice, thank you for putting it so eloquently, **Dio**. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/91 "2009-03-31T19:19:20Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > While I do not agree with everything nyctea scandiaca is saying, I can definitely see where she is coming from. > > I have friends that are the same way. They choose men who seemed to have no real earning potential in life thinking they may change. To hear them bitch and moan about the same guys not working when they were together, now not working to pay their child support, is annoying to say the least. > > What did these women think would magically happen? The courts can order support but you can’t get blood out of a stone. > > I suppose nyctea scandiaca is aware her facebook friend made bad choices from the start and really should understand that she is now paying for those bad choices. She considers herself a victim but really, she is a victim of her own bad choices. Thank you **Foxy** , well said. ---
**Author:** ![xcheopis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bc8723/32.png) [@xcheopis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xcheopis)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/92 "2009-03-31T19:21:22Z")
You made the idiotic decision to have stupid people in your life so don’t expect me to sympathise with your sniveling and whining when it turns out they’re stupid. Loser. Sincerely, xcheopis, Who has made it this far in life without having stupid friends by exercising good judgment in her choice of companions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/93 "2009-03-31T19:22:11Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > What I don’t understand is the absolute certainty – yes, bordering on sanctimony – that the woman under discussion, and others like her, knew the guy(s) was a loser before they had sex with him (them). We don’t always assume this - sometimes they come right out and say so. > [@](#): > > I self identify as a single mom who hooked up with a person who already showed signs of being unstable and irresponsible. It got worse, but he wasn’t Mr MBA from Queens University when we met. > [@](#): > > My daughter’s father is a deadbeat and a loser, and I wasn’t planning on reproducing with him, but sometimes when a mommy and a daddy get very drunk… > > … I KNEW he was a deadbeat and a loser > [@](#): > > I was stupid > [@](#): > > I knew a girl in high school who was kind of a burn out, dated a loser, and got pregnant. > [@](#): > > I have friends that are the same way. They choose men who seemed to have no real earning potential in life thinking they may change. So sometimes it is not an assumption. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/94 "2009-03-31T19:25:03Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Exactly what I was thinking. I keep hearing “but but! She didn’t know he was a loser when she let him impregnate her!! So she’s the victim!” … “She was hoping he would turn out to be a good guy!” … “But he _WAS_ a good guy at the time, it was only later that he turned into a loser!” > > For some reason these excuses don’t inspire much sympathy. Whereas “Sure, I let some loser knock me up, but at least I was smart enough to get an abortion!” really gives a person the warm fuzzies. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/95 "2009-03-31T19:32:26Z")
Took you a couple of tries to figure it out, though, didn’t it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/96 "2009-03-31T19:33:12Z")
My first husband cheated on me several times before we got married. Yet, I - foolishly - married him anyway. I can’t say I never whine about him - at the same time if anyone who knows what happened chooses to roll their eyes while I whine I can completely understand - I was the idiot who married a guy who spent three years proving he wasn’t interested in being faithful to me. No one - including myself - was surprised when the trend held. And if I were to whine too often, my friends should tell me to put a sock in it. Seems similar. Without absolving your child’s father of being an asshole, to spend your time whining that a guy who was a loser when you had sex remains a loser when it comes time to supporting your child is self indulgent whining. We all get to indulge in self indulgent whining on occasion - and those of us whose friends do it too often get to whine about their self indulgent whining, before we set Facebook to ignore all their updates, because unlike a child, its easy to step away from Facebook friends. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/97 "2009-03-31T19:34:57Z")
Are you talking to me, dear? I had a baby because I wanted her, and then I didn’t have any more because I didn’t want them. Nothing to figure out, and I don’t claim that any of those decisions makes me a smarter or better person than anyone else here. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/98 "2009-03-31T19:37:14Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Whereas “Sure, I let some loser knock me up, but at least I was smart enough to get an abortion!” really gives a person the warm fuzzies. Actually, it should read: “Sure, I let someone\* knock me up, but at least I was _responsible_ enough to get an abortion!” And that statement shouldn’t give anyone warm fuzzies, unless they’re thinking about the fact that we are very lucky to have the right to make that choice. I’m not proud, nor am I ashamed. To me, it’s just a medical procedure I underwent, for a condition that I admittedly caused by being careless, just as if I needed stitches because I sliced open my finger because I wasn’t being careful with a knife while chopping veggies. \*The guy in my case was not a loser, we were just not ready. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/99 "2009-03-31T19:39:52Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > Actually, it should read: “Sure, I let someone\* knock me up, but at least I was _responsible_ enough to get an abortion!” > > And that statement shouldn’t give anyone warm fuzzies, unless they’re thinking about the fact that we are very lucky to have the right to make that choice. > > I’m not proud, nor am I ashamed. To me, it’s just a medical procedure I underwent, for a condition that I admittedly caused by being careless, just as if I sliced open my finger because I wasn’t being careful with a knife while chopping veggies. > > \*The guy in my case was not a loser, we were just not ready. You continue to miss my point. I’m not madatchya for the abortion, I just don’t see why she should be any more ashamed of her choice than you are of yours. I have very little patience for people who are so impressed with themselves that they can’t summon up a little “there but for the grace of…” ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399/100 "2009-03-31T19:42:33Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I have very little patience for people who are so impressed with themselves that they can’t summon up a little “there but for the grace of…” I’ve been following along with no problem up to this point, but I don’t understand this statement. Could you clarify? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-a-stupid-choice-with-a-stupid-person-and-youre-surprised-when-stupidity-ensues/491399.md?page=6)