# Make America Sick Again (Trump & Vaccine Refusal) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384 "2017-01-17T13:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/41 "2017-01-18T18:08:34Z")
In my opinion choice vs non-choice isn’t really the issue here. At the end of the day those who really don’t want to vaccinate will probably have their way. As WillFarnby says we won’t be strapping kids down on tables or isolating them in bubbles. Great American freedom allows people to be stupid with themselves and their families and we have to suck up and deal with it. The main goal should be to try to reduce the number of people who behave stupidly (ideally not through Darwinism). Which brings us to what I consider far more dangerous about Trumps endorsements. By putting Anti-vaxers in charge give credence to their movement. If the government seems divided on whether vaccines are harmful or not, then many more people are going to start ignoring the science. Worse yet if it becomes a partisan issue like global warming, then a good 40% of the population will see it as their patriotic duty not to get their kids vaccinated. Just like the terrorist win if your pediatrition is allowed to ask if you have gun. This is when you get the real wildfire epidemics, not when its just the 7-10% who are kooks. Also when you have a head of the vaccine safety committee isn’t willing to believe studies proving safety how do you get new vaccines approved. If you come up with a Zika virus vaccine, how can you prove that it doesn’t cause Microcephily if you don’t believe in scientific studies. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/42 "2017-01-18T18:39:32Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > In my opinion choice vs non-choice isn’t really the issue here. At the end of the day those who really don’t want to vaccinate will probably have their way. As WillFarnby says we won’t be strapping kids down on tables or isolating them in bubbles. Great American freedom allows people to be stupid with themselves and their families and we have to suck up and deal with it. The main goal should be to try to reduce the number of people who behave stupidly (ideally not through Darwinism). > > Which brings us to what I consider far more dangerous about Trumps endorsements. By putting Anti-vaxers in charge give credence to their movement. If the government seems divided on whether vaccines are harmful or not, then many more people are going to start ignoring the science. Worse yet if it becomes a partisan issue like global warming, then a good 40% of the population will see it as their patriotic duty not to get their kids vaccinated. Just like the terrorist win if your pediatrition is allowed to ask if you have gun. This is when you get the real wildfire epidemics, not when its just the 7-10% who are kooks. > > Also when you have a head of the vaccine safety committee isn’t willing to believe studies proving safety how do you get new vaccines approved. If you come up with a Zika virus vaccine, how can you prove that it doesn’t cause Microcephily if you don’t believe in scientific studies. Eh, whatever, I don’t have kids, and I have too many nieces and nephews anyway. While it would be nice to live in a country that doesn’t have a staggeringly high childhood mortality rate, it’s not that big a deal. Might even save some taxes on school levies and other services that go towards children. So, I may switch my position. Make vaccines optional, an opt-in. Require parents to actually ask for the vaccine. 15-20 years from now, traffic should start letting up a bit. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/43 "2017-01-18T18:45:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Good day cares are licensed, pat of that license requires the children attending to be vaccinated. (There are hole in the wall day cares, which I am not sure if it is actually legal, and I know are a bad idea, but I suppose you and the other parents who choose to leave your children at risk of suffering from and transmitting preventable disease can all get together, and let your children wallow in filth.) > > Sports are played on public fields, it is within the rules of public use commons to not allow plague carriers to use those commons. > > I already said churches can go their own way, as long as they make sure that the public is aware of the unsanitary conditions. > > I would limit them from other areas, like restaurants, stores, malls, and any other public gather places if it were easier to tell which children are those who are at risk of transmitting the disease to someone who is immuno-compromised in such a way that they cannot gain an immunity to the disease that you wish your child to spread. > > Or are you saying that these limitations are too much undue burden upon those who wish to place the burden of their sick children on society. I would prefer market-based alternatives. If you make it into a political issue, more people will fight you. Then you will be discussing strapping children down to tables which is what I fear much more than a small minority of people who ignore the science. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/44 "2017-01-18T18:51:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would prefer market-based alternatives. If you make it into a political issue, more people will fight you. Then you will be discussing **strapping children down to tables** which is what I fear much more than a small minority of people who ignore the science. (bolding mine) What the fuck are you blabbering about? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/45 "2017-01-18T18:55:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would prefer market-based alternatives. If you make it into a political issue, more people will fight you. Then you will be discussing strapping children down to tables which is what I fear much more than a small minority of people who ignore the science. Out of curiosity, is it strapping children to tables you are against, or strapping children to tables against their parent’s consent? You seem to keep coming back to this image as though it is somehow burned into your brain. Did this happen to you at some point? I was good with shots and stuff, and I just stood there and let the nurse or doctor do whatever they wanted. My sister, on the other hand, would be screaming and crying from the moment she realized she was going to the doctor until she got ice cream on the way home. She got strapped to a number of tables. None of this happened without our parent’s consent. So, I ask, do you not know that some children do need to be strapped down to tables in order to receive the treatment to which the parents gave consent to? And do you think that parents not being given a choice in the matter will result in their children being strapped to tables? Is there a reason that you keep trying to use this image as if it is some reprehensible thing from which we should all shrink? Anyway, market based alternatives? What would those be? About the only ones I can think of is to deny them entry into certain markets because of their decisions. I suppose you can refuse to treat any child who becomes ill with a disease that would have been prevented by vaccines, but that’s a bit cruel. Give me some idea as to how that could possibly work. (For extra credit, give some idea as to how that could possibly work in the real world.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/46 "2017-01-18T19:22:36Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/47 "2017-01-18T19:37:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So what do you want to do if parents don’t want to vaccinate their child. Be specific. As the doctor in the last cite said: "What I say to those people is that a choice not to get a vaccine is not a risk-free choice. It’s just a choice to take a different risk. And what is that other risk? For example, even though we hadn’t seen measles in this country for 10 years, we finally got to the point where enough children weren’t vaccinated that children started to get measles in 2008, as many as 140, and some of those children were hospitalized, and one of those children almost died. And you don’t want that to be you. And the only way that you can accept, I think, a vaccine for diseases that frankly are virtually gone from the United States, like measles or diphtheria or polio, is if those vaccines are incredibly safe, have a wonderful safety profile. And these vaccines do have that. Doing nothing is doing something. It is, in this case, taking a risk that’s unnecessary. I think in the 1950s or ’60s or ’70s, when you were choosing not to get a vaccine, you were, in a sense, putting a gun to your head that had a certain number of empty chambers and a certain number of bullets. Now, I think, with the diseases being so much rarer, you’re still putting a gun to your head; there’s just far more empty chambers. But why put a gun to your head?" In essence, it is education first and then a bit of social pressure, such as not accepting the kids of the non compliant parents to child care, public schools and also having restrictions to public venues and employment later where the health of the customers would be at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/48 "2017-01-18T19:37:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Eh, whatever, I don’t have kids, and I have too many nieces and nephews anyway. > > While it would be nice to live in a country that doesn’t have a staggeringly high childhood mortality rate, it’s not that big a deal. Might even save some taxes on school levies and other services that go towards children. > > So, I may switch my position. Make vaccines optional, an opt-in. Require parents to actually ask for the vaccine. > > 15-20 years from now, traffic should start letting up a bit. I think you totally missed the point I was trying to make. I am totally %100 pro-vaccine. My view is that by concentrating purely on the vaccination requirements (which are unlikely to change from the status quo), you are totally missing the the much bigger threat which is that now that Trump has made anti-vax public policy, the percentage of people who are anti-vax is going to sky rocket. 8-10% opting out due to anti-vax views is one thing, 30-40% opting out is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/49 "2017-01-18T20:00:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Eh, whatever, I don’t have kids, and I have too many nieces and nephews anyway. > > While it would be nice to live in a country that doesn’t have a staggeringly high childhood mortality rate, it’s not that big a deal. Might even save some taxes on school levies and other services that go towards children. > > So, I may switch my position. Make vaccines optional, an opt-in. Require parents to actually ask for the vaccine. > > 15-20 years from now, traffic should start letting up a bit. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think you totally missed the point I was trying to make. I am totally %100 pro-vaccine. > > My view is that by concentrating purely on the vaccination requirements (which are unlikely to change from the status quo), you are totally missing the the much bigger threat which is that now that Trump has made anti-vax public policy, the percentage of people who are anti-vax is going to sky rocket. 8-10% opting out due to anti-vax views is one thing, 30-40% opting out is quite another. I think you totally missed **k9bfriender** ’s point, which was darkly satirical… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/50 "2017-01-18T20:02:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think you totally missed **k9bfriender** ’s point, which was darkly satirical… I thought it was rather Swift, myself. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/51 "2017-01-18T20:07:57Z")
At least it was modest. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/52 "2017-01-18T20:08:19Z")
I’m gonna stick you with this needle, said Tom, pointedly. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/53 "2017-01-18T20:22:57Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think you totally missed the point I was trying to make. I am totally %100 pro-vaccine. > > My view is that by concentrating purely on the vaccination requirements (which are unlikely to change from the status quo), you are totally missing the the much bigger threat which is that now that Trump has made anti-vax public policy, the percentage of people who are anti-vax is going to sky rocket. 8-10% opting out due to anti-vax views is one thing, 30-40% opting out is quite another. Yeah, I didn’t mean to sound like I was disagreeing. I was just venting frustration by being “resigned” to fate. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/54 "2017-01-18T20:30:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What would you like to happen if parents refuse to have their children vaccinated? More states adopting laws like California’s SB277 eliminating “philosophical” exemptions for childhood vaccination (while continuing to grant evidence-based medical exemptions) in order to attend public schools. Tax disadvantages (or ineligiblity for certain tax advantages) for parents refusing to have their children immunized. Australia has implemented such a policy (the aptly titled [No Jab No Pay](https://www.dss.gov.au/our-responsibilities/families-and-children/benefits-payments/strengthening-immunisation-for-young-children)). For maximum fairness, make the tax bite/loss of benefits greatest for upper income parents (to target the antivaxers who disproportionately inhabit high income zip codes). ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/55 "2017-01-18T20:33:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So what do you want to do if parents don’t want to vaccinate their child. Be specific. Same thing you do if people “don’t want” to not harm the public in other ways. Tell them it’s not their choice. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/56 "2017-01-18T21:25:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. > > My definition of parental choice is the prevailing status quo in parts of the country I’m familiar with. Parents do not have to have their child vaccinated. That choice is almost always made difficult, on purpose, as well it should be. > [@](#): > > What would you like to happen if parents refuse to have their children vaccinated? Really, it’s very simple; 1. An annual tax of $5,000 or ten percent of gross income per immunization-refused child, whichever total is greater. The tax is not reducible any way. Refusal to pay is income tax evasion and a felony. 2. The child is not permitted to attend a public school but must instead be sent to a school specifically set aside for infectious children, if the local authority chooses to make one available. 3. If the child is injured or dies as the result of a communicable disease they were not vaccinated against, in contravention of the state vaccination schedule, the parents are charged with aggravated assault or manslaughter, or an equivalent charge, as the case may be; the refusal to vaccinate should be codified as constituting evidence of criminal intent in such cases. If parents want this “choice” they should face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/57 "2017-01-18T21:55:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That choice is almost always made difficult, on purpose, as well it should be. > Really, it’s very simple; > > 1. An annual tax of $5,000 or ten percent of gross income per immunization-refused child, whichever total is greater. The tax is not reducible any way. Refusal to pay is income tax evasion and a felony. > > 2. The child is not permitted to attend a public school but must instead be sent to a school specifically set aside for infectious children, if the local authority chooses to make one available. > > 3. If the child is injured or dies as the result of a communicable disease they were not vaccinated against, in contravention of the state vaccination schedule, the parents are charged with aggravated assault or manslaughter, or an equivalent charge, as the case may be; the refusal to vaccinate should be codified as constituting evidence of criminal intent in such cases. > > If parents want this “choice” they should face the consequences. Add to 3. If an unvaccinated child gets an immunocompromised person sick, then that should be considered assault (and manslaughter if fatal) as well by the parents. (Not the child’s fault that they are used as a biological weapon.) ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/58 "2017-01-20T22:14:05Z")
Not sure where to go with this We have vaccinated children for how long? We did not have children dropping over dead by the gross, nor some giant proliferation of wide spread birth defects, but suddenly now vaccines are evil. But measles and polio and pox etc are A O-Tay spanky? Everything in life has risk, being alive is a risk all by itself. Letting your child walk out the door is a risk. But they dont want to vaccinate their kids, and YET they dont want to isolate them and in their mind this is better? Dont protect my kid from old school highly fatal or debilitating diseases cause i perceive a risk, then insist i be allowed to send my kid ANYPLACE in general public where they are sure to become exposed to all that which they are not protected against. The inoculated arent killing off all the polio etc germs in the world, they are simply immune to them, may as well stick bleeding flesh in a tank of piranhas. So you want to kill your children then is that it? And worse, while i know not every anti vaccine person would act this way, but many would insist that their non protected children be allowed to go anyplace and everyplace that everyone else goes with no restrictions. They will call it some kind of unconstitutional segregation and lobby against it Then they would have an absolute tirade when their kids get sick and die, and there would be a pointing of fingers at everyone else but themselves. They will blame the health care system and everyone else for not saving their kids, when the savior was already on hand and they declined it. And i dont think the dying would take long to begin, these diseases did not just evaporate, they still live harmlessly on unaffected things, and what not. By the time one of these non vaccine parents recognized a disease no one has seen here for 50 or more years, their kid has already infected all his unvaccinated friends. Welcome back to your familty tree of 10 children, 1 lives to adult hood, then dies of scarlet fever at 23 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/59 "2017-01-21T20:06:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Even if one is reasonable and does think that that is hyperbole, The Kremlin really does not need to send spies to the USA to undermine it, just help the USA elect ignorant leaders and then eventually the opponents of the USA will just need to kick on the door and the then whole shoddy structure will fall down. Worked great following Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384/60 "2017-01-22T15:18:19Z")
Somewhat encouraging news: \*"In the week following Trump’s controversial meeting with vaccine skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr., STAT contacted all 23 members of the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions and asked whether they shared Trump’s concerns about vaccine safety. The committee oversees public health, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and held a hearing last February on the reemergence of diseases that can be prevented by vaccines. Eighteen senators, including eight of the 12 Republicans in the committee’s majority, expressed confidence in the US vaccination system and recognized the health benefits of vaccination."\* > **[Senators on key panel reject Donald Trump's skepticism about vaccines](https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/18/donald-trump-vaccines-senators/)** > > Following Trump’s meeting with a vaccine skeptic, STAT contacted all 23 members of a key Senate health committee for their views on vaccine safety. Trump can still advance the cause of antivaxery (at least by giving a platform for its leading bozos) but it won’t be easy to ram this nonsense through Congress as long as enough Republicans recognize what a p.r. disaster it’d be for the party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-america-sick-again-trump-vaccine-refusal/777384.md?page=4)