# Make Peace With The Taliban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959 "2010-01-29T22:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/101 "2010-02-04T03:04:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I don’t really give a crap about reasons-I care about results. Plus the reasons for the Afghan War was in response to the mass terrorism of the Taliban on September 11th 2001 not money. Have you already forgotten that day when 3,000 Americans were slain? Well, you guys offed 8.000 Afghanis and 700.000 Iraqis since ([source](http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html)). And that’s just the civilians, mind you. The eye for that eye has been plucked quite thoroughly at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/102 "2010-02-04T03:23:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, you guys offed 8.000 Afghanis and 700.000 Iraqis since ([source](http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html)). And that’s just the civilians, mind you. > The eye for that eye has been plucked quite thoroughly at this point. The website you cite is about as reliable as those who think a hundred million Amerindians died in the Columbian Exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/103 "2010-02-04T03:37:39Z")
They provide their sources and methodology. What would you say is inaccurate about them ? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/104 "2010-02-04T03:45:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > They provide their sources and methodology. What would you say is inaccurate about them ? According to the Associate Press, Iraq Body Count, and Iraq Family Health Survey the numbers of death are at somewhere around 100,000 to 200,000. If around 600,000 Iraqis really died that’d equivalent to approximately 7.5 Million Americans dying-in otherwise bring about far more massive societal and economic reprucussions than what we’ve seen. It’d also imply that 5/6 of deaths are not reported to authorities. I can understand 1/3 or 1/2 but 5/6??? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/105 "2010-02-04T03:56:42Z")
Oh. All right then. You make an excellent case. I guess if it’s \*only \*200.000 civilians dead, the score isn’t yet settled. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/106 "2010-02-04T04:20:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They used Taliban Afghanistan as a base. And even if they had handed over Bin Laden other terrorists would still have used it as their base. The hijackers came from lots of places. Some never met each other until just before the mission. Their airplane training was done in The US. Some of them met in Prague. Do we have to attack that city next? No it was not their base. They did not meet there and plan it. What they had in common. They were Saudis. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/107 "2010-02-04T04:30:06Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I don’t really give a crap about reasons-I care about results. The above attitude is responsible for a great many disasters throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/108 "2010-02-05T01:40:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh. All right then. You make an excellent case. I guess if it’s \*only \*200.000 civilians dead, the score isn’t yet settled. Plus much of the killings are by anti-American terrorists not American troops. > [@gonzomax](#): > > The hijackers came from lots of places. Some never met each other until just before the mission. Their airplane training was done in The US. Some of them met in Prague. Do we have to attack that city next? No it was not their base. They did not meet there and plan it. > What they had in common. They were Saudis. Osama Bin Laden plus the rest of the Al-Qaeda higher-ups were in Afghanistan, so were many terrorist training camps. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/109 "2010-02-05T02:28:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus much of the killings are by anti-American terrorists not American troops. Errr, what ? Have you even \*read \*the Wiki page…that I was sure I had cited but it turns out I didn’t :o ? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29)it is, with a more precise breakdown of the casualties. I’m not arguing the US troops go out of their way to specifically airstrike civilians, BTW. It just sort of happens when there’s a big ol’ war going on, that’s all. And whether they died because some Intelligence dude fucked up, or some pilot dropped the bombs on the wrong coordinates, or some dumb grunt was afraid a kid had an IED hidden in his trousers or whatever doesn’t really matter, from the victim’s POV. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/110 "2010-02-05T02:45:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Errr, what ? Have you even \*read \*the Wiki page…that I was sure I had cited but it turns out I didn’t :o ? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29)it is, with a more precise breakdown of the casualties. > > I’m not arguing the US troops go out of their way to specifically airstrike civilians, BTW. It just sort of happens when there’s a big ol’ war going on, that’s all. And whether they died because some Intelligence dude fucked up, or some pilot dropped the bombs on the wrong coordinates, or some dumb grunt was afraid a kid had an IED hidden in his trousers or whatever doesn’t really matter, from the victim’s POV. It should be remembered that it was the terrorists who started the war. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/111 "2010-02-05T02:50:11Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It should be remembered that it was the terrorists who started the war. Damn, i’d forgotten that. Something about some big event or other? A building? Eh, it must have slipped my mind. Can’t have been that important. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/112 "2010-02-05T03:08:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It should be remembered that it was the terrorists who started the war. And just like that, he makes it all OK. God, I wish I had such a robust self-justification system… must be peaceful inside. Quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/113 "2010-02-05T03:20:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And just like that, he makes it all OK. > > God, I wish I had such a robust self-justification system… must be peaceful inside. Quiet. I’m not saying killing civilians is justified-but it is a necessary evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/114 "2010-02-05T03:36:51Z")
This statement is self-contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/115 "2010-02-05T03:46:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This statement is self-contradictory. It is the principle of picking the lesser evil to prevent greater evil. For an example see the atomic bombings of Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/116 "2010-02-05T03:49:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It is the principle of picking the lesser evil to prevent greater evil. For an example see the atomic bombings of Japan. But that is a justification. “It is the lesser evil” is a justification. By saying that killing civilians is a necessary evil, you justify it, by providing reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/117 "2010-02-05T03:58:57Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But that is a justification. “It is the lesser evil” is a justification. By saying that killing civilians is a necessary evil, you justify it, by providing reason for it. I meant it couldn’t be justified morally. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/118 "2010-02-05T04:00:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant it couldn’t be justified morally. Ah, gotcha. So it’s the correct act in practical terms, but it’s still a morally wrong thing to do, is that right? I think i’d probably agree with you there. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/119 "2010-02-05T04:34:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant it couldn’t be justified morally. But if you’re willing to compromise your morals in one case, no matter how extreme or special or specific it is, doesn’t it mean you didn’t have morals to begin with ? It’s kind of like people saying “I’m against the death penalty, except for {insert 'orrible crime here}” - which really means they’re \*for \*the death penalty. IOW, you can’t act immorally and still pretend you have the moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/120 "2010-02-05T06:06:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But if you’re willing to compromise your morals in one case, no matter how extreme or special or specific it is, doesn’t it mean you didn’t have morals to begin with ? It’s kind of like people saying “I’m against the death penalty, except for {insert 'orrible crime here}” - which really means they’re \*for \*the death penalty. > > IOW, you can’t act immorally and still pretend you have the moral high ground. In a black and white world this statement might be true. Moral people have moral failings. All people have moral failings. Compromises are made in life and life goes on. Now some people generally operate immorally, and they cannot be called moral people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=7)