# Make Peace With The Taliban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959 "2010-01-29T22:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/121 "2010-02-05T06:43:59Z")
If I’m hungry and steal a few times, and then feel guilty about it and not do it again, that’s a moral failing. If I’m hungry and I steal, and then rationalize it and keep on stealing, is that still a simple moral failing ? At which point does a moral failing, or a string of them, becomes out and out immorality ? I would also argue that a shrugging “so what ? All people have moral failings, it’s OK, move on” constitutes, in itself, a profound moral failing. Being content in one’s mediocrity, and justifying it by the mediocrity of everyone else is lazy, and worse : it’s _easy_. It’s, at heart, a denial of morality. Yes, I know, man isn’t perfect and never will be. But he’s supposed to strive towards perfection nevertheless, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/122 "2010-02-05T07:48:29Z")
As long as we aren’t certain that everyone isn’t “immoral” per se because of one act. An occasional failing is a disappointment, but it must be moved on from and a return to a moral path must be made. I’ve met a lot of people in my life who have torn themselves apart psychologically from guilt over tiny, inconsequential immoral actions. Some individuals are very susceptible to guilt motivation. To the point it ruins their health. Cutting off the little old lady at the supermarket when moving down the aisle. I’ve seen people hurt themselves over this kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/123 "2010-02-05T08:36:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It should be remembered that it was the terrorists who started the war. Indeed, a whole bunch of middle class, educated often married men trained for months to fly planes into buildings for no reason other than to start a “war”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/124 "2010-02-05T09:24:06Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As long as we aren’t certain that everyone isn’t “immoral” per se because of one act. An occasional failing is a disappointment, but it must be moved on from and a return to a moral path must be made. I’ve met a lot of people in my life who have torn themselves apart psychologically from guilt over tiny, inconsequential immoral actions. Some individuals are very susceptible to guilt motivation. To the point it ruins their health. Cutting off the little old lady at the supermarket when moving down the aisle. I’ve seen people hurt themselves over this kind of thing. I’m ambivalent about this. I’m one of those guilt trippin’ people, or at least I used to be, very much so. Had you asked me back then, I would have told you with all the conviction in the world that not forgiving oneself even the slightest failure to one’s moral code was what kept you from forgiving yourself for the big things. A slippery slope argument I’m not sure I’ve completely abandoned. I would have told you that being miserable is what kept me from being an arsehole. Not that it really worked…:smack: Now… now I’m none too sure, although I still absolutely believe in the cardinal virtue of crippling self-doubt (I’m aware of the paradoxical nature of that statement. I stand by it :)). When it comes right down to it, I suppose an excess of morality is definitely preferable to the opposite - at least in the former, the only one you’re hurting is yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/125 "2010-02-06T03:38:53Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Ah, gotcha. So it’s the correct act in practical terms, but it’s still a morally wrong thing to do, is that right? I think i’d probably agree with you there. Yes exactly. > [@Kobal2](#): > > But if you’re willing to compromise your morals in one case, no matter how extreme or special or specific it is, doesn’t it mean you didn’t have morals to begin with ? It’s kind of like people saying “I’m against the death penalty, except for {insert 'orrible crime here}” - which really means they’re \*for \*the death penalty. > > IOW, you can’t act immorally and still pretend you have the moral high ground. Well my moral principle is “It is better to directly cause little evil rather than allow great evil to occur.” > [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Indeed, a whole bunch of middle class, educated often married men trained for months to fly planes into buildings for no reason other than to start a “war”. Doesn’t matter if they did it to have sex with virgins in Paradise. It was an act of war and the wrath of America is righteously upon them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/126 "2010-02-06T03:59:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Doesn’t matter if they did it to have sex with virgins in Paradise. It was an act of war and the wrath of America is righteously upon them. :rolleyes: Yeah, and who cares how many completely uninvolved people we kill in the meantime, or if we actually accomplish anything. As long as we blow stuff up and kill people while feeling self righteous about it, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/127 "2010-02-06T04:10:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Yeah, and who cares how many completely uninvolved people we kill in the meantime, or if we actually accomplish anything. As long as we blow stuff up and kill people while feeling self righteous about it, that’s fine. They killed people and we must defeat them first so they can harm less. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/128 "2010-02-06T04:11:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They killed people and we must defeat them first so they can harm less. And we killed more people, should we then be defeated so we’ll harm less? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/129 "2010-02-06T04:14:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And we killed more people, should we then be defeated so we’ll harm less? Overall our influence has been positive. Should Afghanistan be won it is quite certain Afghanistan and Iraq will be better off compared to pre-war conditions. Plus our primary interest is the American people and we must attack so they will not kill more. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/130 "2010-02-06T04:21:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Overall our influence has been positive. By what standard? We’ve killed lots of people, and so what? All we’ve done is replace a bunch of thugs who offended us with a bunch of thugs who have accepted our bribe money to play collaborator for a while. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Should Afghanistan be won it is quite certain Afghanistan and Iraq will be better off compared to pre-war conditions. I see no reason to think that either CAN be “won”, since we never bothered to define winning. Nor do I see any reason to think that either will be better than before the war. Especially for the dead; but then dead foreigners aren’t really human, right? They don’t count. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus our primary interest is the American people and we must attack so they will not kill more. Oh, please. Attacking a country like Iraq that wasn’t even involved will encourage people not to attack us? We’ve done everything we could to encourage more attacks, and to make it clear that not attacking us is no protection. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/131 "2010-02-06T04:32:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > By what standard? We’ve killed lots of people, and so what? All we’ve done is replace a bunch of thugs who offended us with a bunch of thugs who have accepted our bribe money to play collaborator for a while. > > I see no reason to think that either CAN be “won”, since we never bothered to define winning. Nor do I see any reason to think that either will be better than before the war. Especially for the dead; but then dead foreigners aren’t really human, right? They don’t count. > > Oh, please. Attacking a country like Iraq that wasn’t even involved will encourage people not to attack us? We’ve done everything we could to encourage more attacks, and to make it clear that not attacking us is no protection. I assume you haven’t seen the reports from Iraq? Also maybe the Iraq War was a mistake but we’re already there and we should finish what we’ve started. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/132 "2010-02-06T04:56:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I assume you haven’t seen the reports from Iraq? Iraq is a disaster, and worse off than it was under Saddam. Not because Saddam was a good ruler, but because we are even worse. They are more impoverished, less safe, less free, and a great many are dead. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also maybe the Iraq War was a mistake but we’re already there and we should finish what we’ve started. Slaughter and exploit them, treat them as lab rats for our ideological theories? We’ve already done enough of that. We are NOT there either for our own defense, or for any reason remotely altruistic or moral. We are there because we are the predators, and they are the victims. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/133 "2010-02-06T08:53:23Z")
Der Trihs - He doesn’t think the uSA is an empire and he’s started talking about a world government to stave off alien invasions. I’m just putting this out there . . . you may be wasting your breath. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/134 "2010-02-06T16:13:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Iraq is a disaster, and worse off than it was under Saddam. Not because Saddam was a good ruler, but because we are even worse. They are more impoverished, less safe, less free, and a great many are dead. After the Surge Iraq is improving. Within a few years I expect it to be superior to pre-war conditions. Look at Germany or Japan for an example. > [@](#): > > Slaughter and exploit them, treat them as lab rats for our ideological theories? We’ve already done enough of that. > > We are NOT there either for our own defense, or for any reason remotely altruistic or moral. We are there because we are the predators, and they are the victims. If Iraq were to fall it would be bad for our security as almost certainly some areas would have been used as a base for terrorists and Iran would have satellitized the Shia areas. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/135 "2010-02-06T16:38:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well my moral principle is “It is better to directly cause little evil rather than allow great evil to occur.” Not that this theory isn’t without its gaping flaws, esp. in the moral department, but that’s not what Afghanistan and Iraq are/were. From an outside POV, you’re directly causing a great evil (killing hundreds of thousands of civilians) to avoid a smaller one (the death of a thousand US civilians). WWJD ? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/136 "2010-02-06T17:06:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not that this theory isn’t without its gaping flaws, esp. in the moral department, but that’s not what Afghanistan and Iraq are/were. From an outside POV, you’re directly causing a great evil (killing hundreds of thousands of civilians) to avoid a smaller one (the death of a thousand US civilians). WWJD ? More Afghans will suffer and die over the long term if we withdraw. Should the war calm down over the next few years things in Afghanistan will start improving even in things like extended lifespans and better health. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/137 "2010-02-06T20:17:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > After the Surge Iraq is improving. Within a few years I expect it to be superior to pre-war conditions. Look at Germany or Japan for an example. Unlikely; as long as America is there, I don’t expect Iraq to remain anything but a disaster; before someone’s wounds can heal, you need to stop stabbing them. And irrelevant. That won’t raise the dead. It won’t give women back their rights. And Germany and Japan went to war against us, not the other way around. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If Iraq were to fall it would be bad for our security as almost certainly some areas would have been used as a base for terrorists and Iran would have satellitized the Shia areas. That is inevitable because of our actions; already largely true in fact. Any rational Iraqi is going to hate us, and will do what they can to see us harmed. Because we deserve their hatred. Iraq is already bad for our security. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/138 "2010-02-06T20:25:26Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > More Afghans will suffer and die over the long term if we withdraw. But less than if you’d never invaded. > [@](#): > > Should the war calm down over the next few years things in Afghanistan will start improving even in things like extended lifespans and better health. So ? I don’t really see how that’s your concern. And I don’t see you invading every last country on Earth that has shitty health care or less-than-incorruptible government. Finally, I don’t see how you can make the case that nothing less than a war and subsequent occupation was necessary for this to happen. And what if the war _doesn’t_ calm down ? What if it never does ? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/139 "2010-02-06T20:32:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Unlikely; as long as America is there, I don’t expect Iraq to remain anything but a disaster; before someone’s wounds can heal, you need to stop stabbing them. And irrelevant. That won’t raise the dead. It won’t give women back their rights. And Germany and Japan went to war against us, not the other way around. Are you ignoring the current reports from Iraq recently? Lower violence and general reconstruction. > [@](#): > > That is inevitable because of our actions; already largely true in fact. Any rational Iraqi is going to hate us, and will do what they can to see us harmed. Because we deserve their hatred. Iraq is already bad for our security. What about the Iraqis who like or at least tolerate Americans such as the Kurds? > [@Kobal2](#): > > But less than if you’d never invaded. Well they were using it as a base for terrorism which is why we invaded. > [@](#): > > So ? I don’t really see how that’s your concern. And I don’t see you invading every last country on Earth that has shitty health care or less-than-incorruptible government. Finally, I don’t see how you can make the case that nothing less than a war and subsequent occupation was necessary for this to happen. > > And what if the war _doesn’t_ calm down ? What if it never does ? Guerrilla movements don’t last that long. Also again we went to war over the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/140 "2010-02-06T20:43:23Z")
Afghanistan is a loose confederation of war lords with very little of a a national government. The government is corrupt and illegitimate. Nobody has respect for it. It exists to eat American taxpayers money. You have to grease palms to go anywhere or do anything. The people hate it and want nothing to do with it. Karzai is involved in the drug trade. It is a mess. Do you really think local war lords give a shit about America? They just want us gone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=8)