# Make Peace With The Taliban? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959 "2010-01-29T22:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/141 "2010-02-06T20:51:24Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Guerrilla movements don’t last that long. Also again we went to war over the attacks. Not against Iraq; that was pure aggression on our part. And resistance in general, if not a specific movement can last centuries. Just look at the British Empire; their victims never stopped resenting them and trying to throw them out, and they are still hated in much of the world. I see no reason to think that the Iraqis will stop hating us no matter how long we stay there and abuse them. They should hate us; it is their moral duty to do so, as far as I’m concerened. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/142 "2010-02-06T23:56:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not against Iraq; that was pure aggression on our part. > > And resistance in general, if not a specific movement can last centuries. Just look at the British Empire; their victims never stopped resenting them and trying to throw them out, and they are still hated in much of the world. I see no reason to think that the Iraqis will stop hating us no matter how long we stay there and abuse them. They should hate us; it is their moral duty to do so, as far as I’m concerened. Again you’re ignoring my example of Kurds and pro-American Iraqis. Plus the British wanted to outright annex other territories and were far more brutal. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/143 "2010-02-07T01:19:20Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Again you’re ignoring my example of Kurds and pro-American Iraqis. So what? The Kurds are hardly most people there; and what makes you think there are many “pro-American” Iraqis? And how does any of that justify us killing tens of thousands and ruining the lives of far more? How “pro-American” are the murdered homosexuals, the ethnically cleansed, the women who can’t get an education thanks to us going to be? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus the British wanted to outright annex other territories and were far more brutal. Somehow I doubt that the Iraqis are ever going to see devastating their country in order to turn it into a puppet as all that different. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/144 "2010-02-07T01:24:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So what? The Kurds are hardly most people there; and what makes you think there are many “pro-American” Iraqis? And how does any of that justify us killing tens of thousands and ruining the lives of far more? How “pro-American” are the murdered homosexuals, the ethnically cleansed, the women who can’t get an education thanks to us going to be? I said maybe coming into Iraq was a mistake (although we may have seen Saddam Hussein be more of a nuisance had he lived) but we should finish the job. > [@](#): > > Somehow I doubt that the Iraqis are ever going to see devastating their country in order to turn it into a puppet as all that different. Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how well off Iraq is twenty, thirty, or fifty years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/145 "2010-02-07T01:31:14Z")
How many of the Kurds are actually pro-American anyway ? Last time I checked, they were quite pissed off by what, in their eyes, was a betrayal from the US that got most of them killed back in Gulf War I. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/146 "2010-02-07T01:35:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I said maybe coming into Iraq was a mistake (although we may have seen Saddam Hussein be more of a nuisance had he lived) but we should finish the job. Since we went in there with evil motives, we should do no such thing. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how well off Iraq is twenty, thirty, or fifty years from now. Oh, please. If Iraq is ever anything but a hellhole it will be in spite of America, and they know it. And the dead will still be dead. I realize that you and your fellow pro-conquest types have no concern for the lives of Iraqis, but I guarantee you our victims don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/147 "2010-02-07T01:42:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since we went in there with evil motives, we should do no such thing. Let’s say President Bush had buckled to the pressure of the Democrats back in '07 and decided to withdraw from Iraq. Iraq would have collapsed into civil war and more people would have died-hundreds of thousands more. Possibly even genocide of Sunnis. > [@](#): > > Oh, please. If Iraq is ever anything but a hellhole it will be in spite of America, and they know it. And the dead will still be dead. I realize that you and your fellow pro-conquest types have no concern for the lives of Iraqis, but I guarantee you our victims don’t agree. That post is such utter nonsense it’s not even funny. If American corporations and government are the primary funders of Iraq’s economic rebuilding how will be “in spite of it”. And I do have concern for the lives of the Iraqis which is why I don’t favour immediate withdrawal which would just kill more Iraqis. In fact if anyone doesn’t care for the Iraqis it’s you and other leftists who’d love to see Iraq fall into chaos and civil war to discredit Bush and other conservatives and so they can be elected into power. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/148 "2010-02-07T01:43:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > How many of the Kurds are actually pro-American anyway ? Last time I checked, they were quite pissed off by what, in their eyes, was a betrayal from the US that got most of them killed back in Gulf War I. They rose up in the Liberation of Iraq. Plus they unlike the Sunnis or Shias haven’t launched anti-American insurgencies-though they have launched anti-Turkish ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/149 "2010-02-07T01:50:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They rose up in the Liberation of Iraq. Plus they unlike the Sunnis or Shias haven’t launched anti-American insurgencies-though they have launched anti-Turkish ones. Hum, yeah, this might be a weird idea by American standards, but “not shooting at you” isn’t the same thing as being “pro you” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/150 "2010-02-07T01:52:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Hum, yeah, this might be a weird idea by American standards, but “not shooting at you” isn’t the same thing as being “pro you” 😛 Maybe it isn’t but they certainly know we’re better than Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/151 "2010-02-07T02:06:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Let’s say President Bush had buckled to the pressure of the Democrats back in '07 and decided to withdraw from Iraq. Iraq would have collapsed into civil war and more people would have died-hundreds of thousands more. Possibly even genocide of Sunnis. Or not. And what makes you think that won’t happen when we leave? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That post is such utter nonsense it’s not even funny. If American corporations and government are the primary funders of Iraq’s economic rebuilding how will be “in spite of it”. Except that we’ve done nothing of the sort. We’ve sabotaged their economy from the beginning, warped it and rewrote their laws to fit Republican economic dogma, and used the Iraqi occupation as an opportunity to funnel money to corrupt corporations. There’s been no serious attempt at rebuilding, nor did we ever intend one. We cannot, and will not leave Iraq better off because we don’t want to. WE are the bad guys here. We went there out of greed, indiscriminate bloodlust and as an ideological/religious crusade; we were not and are not even remotely well meaning. If Iraq is EVER to recover, the first thing that needs to happen is the removal of America from it. America isn’t going to try to make it a better place any more than a rapist is going to try to make his victim better; the best thing he can do for her is leave. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Maybe it isn’t but they certainly know we’re better than Hussein. We aren’t; most of them were better off under him than us. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/152 "2010-02-07T02:14:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or not. And what makes you think that won’t happen when we leave? The US has stablized Iraq to some extent. > [@](#): > > Except that we’ve done nothing of the sort. We’ve sabotaged their economy from the beginning, warped it and rewrote their laws to fit Republican economic dogma, and used the Iraqi occupation as an opportunity to funnel money to corrupt corporations. There’s been no serious attempt at rebuilding, nor did we ever intend one. Say that to the thousands of aid workers and charities who are there to make Iraq a better place. > [@](#): > > We cannot, and will not leave Iraq better off because we don’t want to. WE are the bad guys here. We went there out of greed, indiscriminate bloodlust and as an ideological/religious crusade; we were not and are not even remotely well meaning. If Iraq is EVER to recover, the first thing that needs to happen is the removal of America from it. America isn’t going to try to make it a better place any more than a rapist is going to try to make his victim better; the best thing he can do for her is leave. What the-? Also why do refer to US as “he” all countries are feminine. Plus if the war was mainly out of selfishness why didn’t President Bush do the popular thing and pull out of Iraq? He hasn’t profited from it-indeed it has made him hated by leftist ideologues. Oil prices are not down because of Iraq. Plus your fanatical dogmatic belief that “WE MUST WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ.” has no basis in reality-it’s in fact a religious belief as much as my opinion of God is. > [@](#): > > We aren’t; most of them were better off under him than us. Who do you mean? Are you talking about the Sunni Baathist elite? Sure they are worse off than before. But the Kurds definately not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/153 "2010-02-07T02:41:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus if the war was mainly out of selfishness why didn’t President Bush do the popular thing and pull out of Iraq? He hasn’t profited from it-indeed it has made him hated by leftist ideologues. First, he’s an incompetent, malignant fool. Second, he got to kill Saddam, got Saddam’s gun as a trophy, and got to preen about how awesome he is. Plus, he killed foreigners, destroyed Iraqi secularism, and in general made life hell on earth for millions. I’m sure he was quite happy with his accomplishments. What dose he care what most of humanity thinks, as long as he can wallow in the suffering of others? You do realize that most of the world population opposed what we did from the beginning? And hated him, too. Not just “leftist ideologues”. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Oil prices are not down because of Iraq. And his buddies in the oil industry profited by that immensely. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Who do you mean? Are you talking about the Sunni Baathist elite? Sure they are worse off than before. But the Kurds definately not. Women are worse off; that’s half the population right there. Possibly you like the idea that women can no longer get educations or have the relative freedom they did under Saddam; it would fit with your religious/political philosophy. Then there’s the persecution and murders of homosexuals, the general end of religious tolerance, the ethnic cleansing, and on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/154 "2010-02-07T02:54:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, he’s an incompetent, malignant fool. Second, he got to kill Saddam, got Saddam’s gun as a trophy, and got to preen about how awesome he is. Plus, he killed foreigners, destroyed Iraqi secularism, and in general made life hell on earth for millions. I’m sure he was quite happy with his accomplishments. What dose he care what most of humanity thinks, as long as he can wallow in the suffering of others? > > You do realize that most of the world population opposed what we did from the beginning? And hated him, too. Not just “leftist ideologues”. What an utter cartoonish view of the President you have. I might as well say President Obama is an “evul Communist Muslim Atheist Neo-Nazi” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And his buddies in the oil industry profited by that immensely. Not really since a lot of people are using less oil. > [@](#): > > Women are worse off; that’s half the population right there. Possibly you like the idea that women can no longer get educations or have the relative freedom they did under Saddam; it would fit with your religious/political philosophy. Then there’s the persecution and murders of homosexuals, the general end of religious tolerance, the ethnic cleansing, and on and on. I don’t think Saddam was that tolerant of homosexuals or Shias either. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/155 "2010-02-07T02:59:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I don’t think Saddam was that tolerant of homosexuals or Shias either. :rolleyes: There was more tolerance for women and homosexuals under his reign than ours. The population as a whole was better off under him than us. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/156 "2010-02-07T18:33:18Z")
Over half the students in college were women when Saddam was in charge. The various sects intermarried and lived in mixed communities. Women held jobs and could wear western clothes. We took care of that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/157 "2010-02-09T03:01:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There was more tolerance for women and homosexuals under his reign than ours. The population as a whole was better off under him than us. Which isn’t our fault. It is the anti-American and current Iraqi government terrorists who are causing the majority of the violence. Indeed we have now restored some order and there is hope for Iraq. Liberals who laughed at George W Bush’s actions are either blind to reality or ignoring it. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Over half the students in college were women when Saddam was in charge. The various sects intermarried and lived in mixed communities. Women held jobs and could wear western clothes. We took care of that. If relations were so good why did it fall apart as soon as Saddam fell? Was Saddam some sort of Tito? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/158 "2010-02-09T03:14:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Which isn’t our fault. It is the anti-American and current Iraqi government terrorists who are causing the majority of the violence. The people we let loose, and in the case of the government put into what power they have, in other words. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Indeed we have now restored some order and there is hope for Iraq. Liberals who laughed at George W Bush’s actions are either blind to reality or ignoring it. He’s a monster, his actions were monstrous. Laughter is hardly how I feel towards him. And there will be no hope for Iraq until America leaves. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If relations were so good why did it fall apart as soon as Saddam fell? Was Saddam some sort of Tito? He was the one who maintained order; we didn’t seriously try. We just let everything fall apart, because we did not and do not care in the slightest what happens to the Iraqi people. We are there for wholly selfish, evil purposes, and always have been. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/159 "2010-02-09T03:30:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The people we let loose, and in the case of the government put into what power they have, in other words. > > He’s a monster, his actions were monstrous. Laughter is hardly how I feel towards him. > > And there will be no hope for Iraq until America leaves. Which ignores the after effects of the Surge and the current state of Iraq. > [@](#): > > He was the one who maintained order; we didn’t seriously try. We just let everything fall apart, because we did not and do not care in the slightest what happens to the Iraqi people. We are there for wholly selfish, evil purposes, and always have been. You continue to spew this utter rubbish about America being evil and etc. while ignoring everything that has happened. In fact you do seem to have a religion-except it’s a religion based on the hatred rather than the adoration of something. It is the religion of America-Hate-believing America to be some sort of a satanic utterly irredeemable embodiment of pure evil. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959/160 "2010-02-09T05:51:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Which ignores the after effects of the Surge and the current state of Iraq. A hellhole occupied by their enemies, aka us. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You continue to spew this utter rubbish about America being evil and etc. while ignoring everything that has happened. Don’t be silly; “what has happened” is WHY I denounce America. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In fact you do seem to have a religion-except it’s a religion based on the hatred rather than the adoration of something. It is the religion of America-Hate-believing America to be some sort of a satanic utterly irredeemable embodiment of pure evil. I’ve said nothing of the sort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-peace-with-the-taliban/526959.md?page=9)