# Make Social Justice Great Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081 "2020-07-12T02:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/101 "2020-07-12T13:58:22Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Now you say you agree that statues must come down no matter who does it. > > I have no idea what your point is, I’m afraid. They must come down _eventually_. If it happens now, that’s not a bad thing; it’s just a poor use of time. It’s the grocery clerk sweeping the floor when there’s black mold in the fridges. My point is prioritization, and the dismissal of that because “there are enough of us to go around” is clearly disproven by the fact that real harm is still occurring on a regular and frequent basis. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/102 "2020-07-12T14:00:47Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > “I’m being attacked here” “why that makes me evil” “I am not your enemy” > > > > Me, me, me! > > Oh for Christ’s sake. I’m using myself as an example You realise this doesn’t refute _anything_ I said, right? Just because you put up the cross yourself, then nailed yourself to it, while shouting “look what a martyr I am!”, doesn’t mean you’re not still up there. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/103 "2020-07-12T14:02:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Keep softballing it as mere “symbology”, that’s _really_ making me think you’re actually _listening_ … Where did the word “mere” come from? I’m still wondering if I’m just posting into the wind. Let me say it again: > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > It’s bad. It’s terrible. It’s horrible. It’s insidious. It inspires hatred and fear and speaks to a world in which human rights are for the majority and no one else. I get that. I get it. I do. For fuck’s sake, the statues are godawful and they should be destroyed. But yes, that IS lower on the list than actual physical harm to people right here and right now today. As someone who’s suffered at the hands of such harm, would you rather that people in your native home spent their time ripping down statues, or trying to stop the people who were conducting daily atrocities on you from doing that? And yes, you DO have to choose; it’s the sad reality of human existence. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/104 "2020-07-12T14:03:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You realise this doesn’t refute _anything_ I said, right? Just because you put up the cross yourself, then nailed yourself to it, while shouting “look what a martyr I am!”, doesn’t mean you’re not still up there. That particular portion doesn’t, no. Do you care to read the rest of that post? It isn’t very long. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/105 "2020-07-12T14:04:39Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > They must come down _eventually_. If it happens now, that’s not a bad thing; it’s just a poor use of time. Telling people how best to use _their own time_, for what _you_ consider most productive? I hate to say it, given your OTT sensitivity to even a whiff of being called racist… …but that’s a bit slave-drivery, comrade. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/106 "2020-07-12T14:04:42Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > > [@saje](#): > > > > Now you say you agree that statues must come down no matter who does it. > > > > I have no idea what your point is, I’m afraid. > > They must come down _eventually_. If it happens now, that’s not a bad thing; it’s just a poor use of time. It’s the grocery clerk sweeping the floor when there’s black mold in the fridges. My point is prioritization, and the dismissal of that because “there are enough of us to go around” is clearly disproven by the fact that real harm is still occurring on a regular and frequent basis. What you’re asking for is not remotely realistic. People will take the targets in front of them and that they feel capable of tackling. Rejoice that this is the biggest progressive social justice movement in decades, and that public opinion is shifting fast in our direction, largely because of all this enthusiasm. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/107 "2020-07-12T14:06:18Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > But yes, that IS lower on the list than actual physical harm to people right here and right now today. Once again - **those statues cause actual physical harm.** It’s like you don’t actually read my posts. The ones that have links in them and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/108 "2020-07-12T14:07:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What you’re asking for is not remotely realistic. People will take the targets in front of them and that they feel capable of tackling. Rejoice that this is the biggest progressive social justice movement in decades, and that public opinion is shifting fast in our direction, largely because of all this enthusiasm. I know! That is exactly what I’m saying! I agree with you! Let me shout it from the rooftops: **I AGREE WITH YOU**. I am aware that expecting everyone to reprioritize is not realistic. But if I can make one iota of a dent, I’ll have done some good. We’ve got a good thing going. Let us, to the best of our ability, focus it on the areas that will help the most. Flailing about at random is not the best use of it. I know it’s going to happen, but we can at least try. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/109 "2020-07-12T14:07:32Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > You realise this doesn’t refute _anything_ I said, right? Just because you put up the cross yourself, then nailed yourself to it, while shouting “look what a martyr I am!”, doesn’t mean you’re not still up there. > > That particular portion doesn’t, no. Do you care to read the rest of that post? It isn’t very long. I read it. It doesn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/110 "2020-07-12T14:09:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Once again - **those statues cause actual physical harm.** > > It’s like you don’t actually read my posts. The ones that have links in them and everything. Link me to a statue running someone over with a car, or beating someone with a baton, or pepper-spraying someone in the face, or denying someone healthcare or a job. I promise you I will read the shit out of that, because that would be absolutely fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/111 "2020-07-12T14:10:14Z")
OK, so that’s your stance? “Suicide doesn’t count”? You’re rapidly moving from martyr to tool. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/112 "2020-07-12T14:13:24Z")
Genuine question here. Really, sincerely. Do you have any statistics on the number of suicides caused by perceived systemic racism? Because, if it’s higher than the rate of physical harm that’s caused by racist beatings/murders and denial of healthcare and jobs to poor minorities, I will absolutely and with all my heart change my stance fucking immediately and go help tear down a statue. I’m not kidding. I’m not being disingenuous. _I want to help._ I’m arguing the way I am because I currently think that “helping” entails focusing on other things. If I’m wrong about that, I really, honestly, very much want to know. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/113 "2020-07-12T14:15:57Z")
I do agree that a movement can and should prioritize its actions based on its material and political capital. This is not a new argument on the left. This is older than Trotsky and Lenin arguing over whether to prioritize socialism in one country or socialism in every country (eventually getting Trotsky murdered). It probably goes back to the French revolution. It should be possible to talk about priority without demonizing or assassinating our allies on the same side of the barricade. Statues of Confederates or slave traders are inarguably bad, of course. But It shouldn’t be controversial to point out that this is a lightning-rod issue that attracts criticism disproportionate to the good that it does. Does pulling down a statue put a bad cop in jail? Does it get a child out of an ICE cage? Does it give someone healthcare? Bring a murdered detainee back to life? No, it doesn’t touch any system of oppression at all, it just gives angry people a momentary sense of achievement. And it inevitably progresses to mindless vandalism like pulling down the statue of Norwegian-born abolitionist and anti-Confederate Hans Christian Heg. This is the embodiment of the critique that the mob has no idea who or what they’re attacking. They’re actually attacking statues of historical allies because they are too ignorant to figure out what they’re doing. There’s no way to spin that as a good look, and it’s a legitimate topic of strategy to ask if this is really the necessary thing at the current time. Anyway, sorry to ramble, but it’s an old and cherished custom on the left to disagree vigorously about tactics and strategy. Only idiots look at such an argument and conclude that their opponent is a reactionary traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/114 "2020-07-12T14:31:26Z")
“…_and the statues still aren’t the fucking point_,” he said to absolutely no one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/115 "2020-07-12T14:31:30Z")
What the actual fuck? “Statistics”? **One** is too fucking many, dude. And it’s certainly more than one. And IMO, it’s almost certainly more than the number of racist murders. But in any case, how do you think we’d be able to tease out that figure? There’s a lot of recent research (like [here](https://www.uh.edu/class/psychology/clinical-psych/research/crrl/publications/), for instance), but nothing like the clean number you want. And that shouldn’t fucking matter. **It’s not a competition.** ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/116 "2020-07-12T14:33:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > this is a lightning-rod issue You don’t think that’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/117 "2020-07-12T14:34:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What the actual fuck? “Statistics”? **One** is too fucking many, dude. And it’s certainly more than one. And IMO, it’s almost certainly more than the number of racist murders. But in any case, how do you think we’d be able to tease out that figure? There’s a lot of recent research (like [here](https://www.uh.edu/class/psychology/clinical-psych/research/crrl/publications/), for instance), but nothing like the clean number you want. > > And that shouldn’t fucking matter. **It’s not a competition.** It **shouldn’t** be a competition, but because of the nature of reality, it is. A person has to prioritize. I’m championing prioritizing certain causes over other causes, which in no way indicates that I oppose those other causes. But, yes, we do have to choose. Pretending we don’t is living in fantasyland. Edit: And of course one is too many. Why did you think you needed to tell me that? That doesn’t mean that the needs of the many don’t outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. If you can convince me that “the needs of the many” are better served by pulling down statues than by advocating for legislative equality and universal healthcare, among other things, then you will have won this argument. I want to be on your side. I think that you are a good person with the best interests of humankind at heart. That’s why I’m investing as much into this thread as I am: I want the good people to do the best that they – that _we_ – can do. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/118 "2020-07-12T14:40:03Z")
I meant it isn’t a competition in terms of death count. This is like when people start comparing genocide numbers to see who was the bigger butcher. After the first mass grave, it doesn’t fucking matter anymore. Same-same with what’s killing PoCs. And I feel I should point out Native Americans suicide at a higher rate than any other grouping. Hey, remind me whose land Mount Rushmore sits on, again? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/119 "2020-07-12T14:47:13Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > And of course one is too many. Why did you think you needed to tell me that? Because apparently you think only calculus matters, and not emotion. An opinion you didn’t exactly dissuade by quoting Spock just now, BTW. People are pulling down statues because, like I said, **they are terror weapons**. People are eliminating an actual threat to themselves or people they care about. And they’re also experiencing the catharsis of results that all the writing letters to powerless (if not actively hostile) politicians does not provide. And you’re saying “No, don’t do this thing that makes you feel good, even empowered; that I actually agree is a benefit; and that you very much want to do now. Because I think you could do something else (that we all know won’t actually matter a crap anyway) first.” Arguing with the weather only makes you wetter, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/120 "2020-07-12T14:56:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because I think you could do something else (that we all know won’t actually matter a crap anyway) first. BLM protests against police brutality didn’t accomplish anything? Fighting against systemic racism via legislation doesn’t accomplish anything? Slavery wasn’t ended via legislation brought on by a mass movement? The Equal Rights Amendment wasn’t accomplished via public effort? Apartheid in South Africa didn’t end, and Nelson Mandela didn’t become President, because people spread the word that systemic racism was bullshit? All of that “doesn’t matter a crap anyway”? If that’s what you actually think, you have a very strange perspective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=7)