# Make Social Justice Great Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081 "2020-07-12T02:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/121 "2020-07-12T15:02:41Z")
Oh, so it wasn’t you who wrote this? > As an example, I think a good use of protester time would be to contact your local and national representatives and advocate for the removal of institutionally racist organizations and policies. That’s what I said won’t matter a crap. Because it certainly hasn’t mattered up to now. And FYI, what stopped apartheid was a combination of economic boycott **and fucking armed rebellion** , not writing letters to our representatives (not that we had representatives, you understand, what with not having the vote and all…) Pro tip: pulling down statues is fucking **how** you “spread the word that systemic racism [is] bullshit”. Would you prefer they were [blowing up more government buildings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe#1980s:_Bombings)? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/122 "2020-07-12T15:08:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And FYI, what stopped apartheid was a combination of economic boycott **and fucking armed rebellion** , not writing letters to our representatives (not that we had representatives, you understand, what with not having the vote and all…) You would obviously know a shitload more about that than me, and I’m not presuming to tell you what happened. The point is that people focusing their efforts, violently or otherwise, on shit that actually mattered was what got shit done. That’s what I’m supporting here. No, I don’t want government buildings blown up, unless we get to the point that that’s what it looks like it’s going to take. I don’t think we’re there yet. But we can do other things in support of that same effort, if we try. You’re saying that pulling down statues DOES support that effort. If that’s true, I’ll support the use of time and energy to do that. But I’ve not seen any convincing evidence that leads me to believe that. I do think the calculus is important, because rationality is important in determining what to do about things. It’s the same reason we don’t let crime victims impose the sentences – operating on pure emotion does not make for a world in which things are optimal for everyone. Of course acknowledging emotion is important; that’s why I do believe that the fucking statues are terrible, and also why I believe that helping people is paramount. I wouldn’t think that if I didn’t give a fuck on multiple levels. But if you don’t put rationality and priority values into it, you’re going to spend a lot of time on things that would be better handled by getting rid of the root of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/123 "2020-07-12T15:10:30Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is not a new argument on the left. This is older than Trotsky and Lenin arguing over whether to prioritize socialism in one country or socialism in every country (eventually getting Trotsky murdered). Nitpick: the argument was between Trotsky and Stalin. Trotsky was closer to Lenin’s viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/124 "2020-07-12T15:14:44Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > The point is that people focusing their efforts, violently or otherwise, on shit that actually mattered was what got shit done. And people disagree with you about what actually matters now. Why does your take overrule theirs? And I swear, if you post that one black person’s take on this again, I’m just going to consider you’re trolling. This is not a conversation you get to trump by OBFing, especially a virtual one. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/125 "2020-07-12T15:18:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And people disagree with you about what actually matters now. Why does your take overrule theirs? It doesn’t, if I’m wrong. Explain to my why I am. And the point of that link wasn’t OBF; that aspect of it was pretty clearly a joke. The point therein, though, does pretty neatly encapsulate the point I’m trying to make for the TL;DR crowd who can’t be arsed to actually read my posts. But, no, I don’t assume that I’m automatically correct about everything I say. I do require evidence to convince me that I’m not before I change my stance. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/126 "2020-07-12T15:31:24Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > {…} running someone over with a car, or beating someone with a baton, or pepper-spraying someone in the face, {…} That these things are happening, today, to the people that merely want these statues taken down, through the means you prefer, might suggest to you how important these statues actually are. Or the other thing, which is what I’m sure your gonna go with. CMC ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/127 "2020-07-12T15:35:23Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > That these things are happening, today, to the people that merely want these statues taken down, through the means you prefer, might suggest to you how important these statues actually are. > Or the other thing, which is what I’m sure your gonna go with. It suggests to me that _the people who are doing the actions you are referring to_ need to be stopped because they’re evil scum. Tearing down the statues does not stop those people. It does not change their views; it does not change their actions. It destroys a thing that they have created, which they will either rebuild or recreate in some other fashion, because you have not opposed _them_, you have opposed their creation. Their creation SHOULD be opposed, because it is horrible and evil, and representative of all that is bad. But opposing the people instead of the thing would be even better. I’m also sincerely curious what you’re defining as “the other thing.” I mean, I know how _I’d_ define it, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what you meant, or you’d recognize that we probably agree on it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/128 "2020-07-12T15:36:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t think that’s the point? I don’t think I see a meaning in this question. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/129 "2020-07-12T15:43:59Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Nitpick: the argument was between Trotsky and Stalin. Trotsky was closer to Lenin’s viewpoint My bad, I misspoke. Trotsky had minor differences with Lenin, but serious bad blood with Stalin. Obviously since Stalin had him killed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/130 "2020-07-12T16:16:24Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > And people disagree with you about what actually matters now. Why does your take overrule theirs? > > It doesn’t, if I’m wrong. How can there be “right” and “wrong” in matters of opinion and emotion? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/131 "2020-07-12T16:19:13Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > For that, **I’m being castigated** , and my secondary point is that that’s not a very good way to approach things if you want to encourage people to stay on your side, is being taken as opposition. > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > especially since straight white cisgendered males don’t get to have opinions on things anymore > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > It’s “how can you possibly focus on attacking statues when statues don’t do anything and there are real problems, **you ridiculous imbecile**?” > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > The Redskins need to change their name because it’s racist. Washington & Lee has the word “Lee” in it. **If you don’t see the difference, you are a moron**. > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > especially since straight white cisgendered males don’t get to have opinions on things anymore If you really just wanted a discussion, perhaps you shouldn’t have poured a gallon of arsenic down the well. Me, I’ll just keep on doing my straight white cis-gendered thing. Perhaps tomorrow, on the way to the BLM protest, I might make a call to the board of Washington and Lee about that name of theirs. Since it’s a long walk, perhaps I might have time to also tweet about the fact that Ceremonial Deism is simply a shitty way of getting around the first amendment. As I pass by that Nathan Bedford Forrest statue, perhaps I could give it a quick shove as well. Shit, I might even chew some gum at the same time. On the way back, I might even stop off at a polling place and vote to help ensure that our voices have power. Or, I could laser focus and call all but one of those things fucking idiotic like you seem to want to do. For fuck sake, you have Velocity (not really much of a SJW, that one) being your cheerleader in this thread, so perhaps you happen to be wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/132 "2020-07-12T16:19:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > You don’t think that’s the point? > > I don’t think I see a meaning in this question. You don’t think one possible reason for tearing down statues is because it very publicly highlights that there are clearly plenty of people around who do cling on to the ideals of those old racists? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/133 "2020-07-12T16:46:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t think one possible reason for tearing down statues is because it very publicly highlights that there are clearly plenty of people around who do cling on to the ideals of those old racists? I don’t see what I wrote that would make you think that. I’m not playing this cutesy game where you ask me questions suggesting what I should think or not think. If you are unclear what I think, ask me to clarify it. If you have a persuasive argument, make it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/134 "2020-07-12T16:52:32Z")
It wasn’t a rhetorical question. I was literally asking if you’d considered that the lightning rod nature of the action could be viewed as a positive,by the people doing it, rather than the negative your post assumes it must be. You seem to think it _just_ (your word) gives “angry people a momentary sense of achievement”. I’m asking if you’ve considered that it may have more purpose than that. That being a lightning rod for racists is a useful social function. I’m not playing Socrates here, I’m literally asking if you’ve thought about it from that angle. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/135 "2020-07-12T17:12:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You seem to think it _just_ (your word) gives “angry people a momentary sense of achievement”. I’m asking if you’ve considered that it may have more purpose than that. That being a lightning rod for racists is a useful social function. What is achieved by being a lightning rod for racists? Whatever benefit that is, does it outweigh the negative of giving aggrieved whites another thing to be angry about? I don’t want to give my opposition a bloody shirt to get energized over. I want them feeling apathetic, powerless, cynical, hopeless. I definitely don’t want to waste any oxygen over being forced to condemn indiscriminate destruction of statues that aren’t really about slavery, or are actually celebrating abolitionists (Hans Christian Heg for example). I think the lack of discernment overpowers whatever benefit you think is derived from destroying statues. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/136 "2020-07-12T17:27:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > What is achieved by being a lightning rod for racists? It certainly gives the lie to all those “racism is a thing of the past” arguments, for one thing… > [@](#): > > Whatever benefit that is, does it outweigh the negative of giving aggrieved whites another thing to be angry about? Because tripping around the fee-fees of the motherfucking wypipo is what it’s all about, amirite? > [@](#): > > I don’t want to give my opposition a bloody shirt to get energized over. I want them feeling apathetic, powerless, cynical, hopeless. How’s that going to happen, when they _have_ all the power? Maybe, just maybe, by taking some of the power back… like, say, deciding which statues stay and fall. How “apathetic” and “powerless” must the racists feel, if they rant and rave, and the statues fall _anyway_? > [@](#): > > I definitely don’t want to waste any oxygen over being forced to condemn indiscriminate destruction of statues that aren’t really about slavery, or are actually celebrating abolitionists (Hans Christian Heg for example). I think the lack of discernment overpowers whatever benefit you think is derived from destroying statues. Omelette, eggs. A couple statues of good guys is a small price to pay. Nobody is forcing you to condemn it, so why feel you have to? That’s effort you _choose_ to spend rather than ignoring anyone who raises the issue as if it mattered. ,Although, BTW, some of the people who tore it down were also [aware](https://www.chicagotribune.com/midwest/ct-nw-wisconsin-statues-torn-down-20200624-oomc3z7wyfewtpeosif7nx5klq-story.html) that it was used as a smokescreen, basically the “One Abolitionist Friend” of the government : > Protester Micah Le said the two statues paint a picture of Wisconsin as a racially progressive state even though slavery has continued in the form of a corrections system built around incarcerating Blacks. > “The fall of the statues is a huge gain for the movement, though **I think that liberal and conservative media outlets will try to represent last night as senseless violence rather than the strategic political move it really was** ,” Le wrote. Hey, look, she already read your mind. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/137 "2020-07-12T17:29:13Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > Well THAT we can absolutely agree on. But it makes people think that liberalism is pissing into the wind because that’s exactly what it is. If you don’t attack the ideas that created the symbols, the symbols will persist regardless of how many of them you destroy. Uh, most of the liberal peaceful protests did complain about those things. Can’t speak for others but it is clear that you are falling for the right wing talking point that equates peaceful protesters with the ones toppling statues. It is also a bit asinine that you are ignoring here that while people are indeed dying Trump is choosing to make a big act of defending his confederate heroes. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/138 "2020-07-12T17:36:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because tripping around the fee-fees of the motherfucking wypipo is what it’s all about, amirite Okay, spittle-flying babytalk is where I have to check out of the conversation. Good luck with whatever you think you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/139 "2020-07-12T17:40:54Z")
Please. Like you weren’t looking for an excuse from your first reply to me. Fuck off back to Pretend Ally Alley, tosser. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/140 "2020-07-12T17:41:59Z")
Best I can do here to try and clarify for the OP is this: You are recommending actions that accomplish less than taking down the statues. Taking down statues does not merely make some people feel good. It doesn’t even just motivate people to continue fighting, like MrDibble said. It is an extension of the very BLM protests you are claiming were good. Those who have those statues do not think that Black Lives Matter–they’re celebrating segregation and enslavement. The reason the BLM protests have accomplished anything is that there were enough people to finally threaten the people in power to feel they have to do something. It wasn’t that they suddenly cared about the message that they’ve been told over and over. Your alternative appears to just be “go back to what wasn’t really working before.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=8)