# Make Social Justice Great Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081 "2020-07-12T02:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/161 "2020-07-13T05:15:48Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its an abstract problem for you, a thought exercise. It isn’t real. It _is_ real, though. I refer again to the people who are fucking dying, right now, today. I refer to the guy who gets beaten in the streets. I refer to the protestor who gets pepper-sprayed in the face. I refer to the mother who can’t get a job because she’s an immigrant and surrounded by racist assholes. I refer to the child thrown into a concentration camp and separated from his parents. It IS real. The statue is real, too, but it’s a real OBJECT. All I am arguing is that the Good Person energy we’ve got a historical amount of right now is being channeled into less effective places than it could otherwise be, and that, to use **kaylasdad99** ’s apt analogy, there are NOT enough people on the riverbanks of the causes of actual and immediate harm, because all of those things are super duper duper duper real and are still happening every single goddamn day. There’s also this weird presumption that I’m opposing the cause of social justice, which speaks to the left’s habit of eating its own children when they don’t march exactly in lockstep. The Republicans don’t care what you think about much of anything as long as you vote “R”; they’ll invite you in and give you a cookie even if you’re one of the Log Cabin types who’s voting against your own human rights. You’re in no danger of losing me to that side, because that side is actively evil. But a lot of views are being ascribed to me in this thread that just are not so. If that’s “making it about me” then so be it; I know the standard Keyboard Warrior response is to pretend not to care, but I’ve been here long enough to respect the opinions of many of the responders to this thread – including you, **Banquet\_Bear** – that I do care _some_ when I think I’m having opinions credited to me that I just absolutely do not hold. I know I’m apparently failing to communicate effectively here, but if you read what I’ve posted and aren’t being disingenuous, it’s hard to conclude that I don’t care about the people being affected by social justice issues. Edit: and the statues still aren’t the fucking point. There’s a lot of flailing about going on. I gave a multitude of other examples, and can give more. Using your time to send death threats to a football player for being kind of a dingus isn’t really accomplishing much either. If other examples would be helpful, it’s not like they’re hard to find. It’s not all about statues. Fuck. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/162 "2020-07-13T05:19:47Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > {…} Log Cabin types {…} Oh, you really don’t want to go there, 'cause there’s a couple of people here who are very aware of the kind of ‘ally’ you seem to be. The kind that’s say’s now isn’t the right time for what _you_ want there are more important things to be done. CMC ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/163 "2020-07-13T05:21:09Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Oh, you really don’t want to go there, 'cause there’s a couple of people here who are very aware of the kind of ‘ally’ you seem to be. The kind that’s say’s now isn’t the right time for what _you_ want there are more important things to be done. You genuinely don’t believe that priorities exist, and that certain uses of valuable time are more effective than others? And, furthermore, that believing that makes one the sort of ‘ally’ that requires scare quotes? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/164 "2020-07-13T05:23:08Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > All I am arguing is that the Good Person energy we’ve got a historical amount of right now is being channeled into less effective places than it could otherwise be, …as SmartAleq most eloquently put it: you don’t get to “armchair quarterback and tell them how they’re supposed to be protesting and what their priorities should be.” Not now. You describe yourself as “BLM-marching, Planned Parenthood donating, pro-UHC-protesting, public-education-demonstrating-in-front-of-the-Supreme-Court speechmaking liberal fooldaddy.” In other words: you’ve got no skin in the game. Life goes on for you. You don’t get to lecture those who are literally fighting for their right to exist. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/165 "2020-07-13T05:25:21Z")
You’re looking like the kind of ‘ally’ that’s all for Gay rights . . . but now just isn’t the right time for Gay marriage. You’re looking like the kind of ‘ally’ that’s all for Trans rights . . . but now just isn’t the right time to discuss changes to public bathroom rules. (As examples so don’t bother arguing it.) CMC ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/166 "2020-07-13T05:26:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In other words: you’ve got no skin in the game. Life goes on for you. You don’t get to lecture those who are literally fighting for their right to exist. Well, first of all, I may not have as much skin in the game as those who are, as you correctly point out, fighting for the right to exist. I do, however, get to care whether those people achieve that right, and I do get to have an opinion, as a thoughtful person, as to how that might most effectively be achieved. Of course life goes on for me. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I want things to improve for the greatest possible number of people as quick as it possibly can. I can’t possibly understand what it’s like to live in America as a minority, but I _can_ understand it when I see them get mowed down by a car. I want that to stop. Is that really so bad? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/167 "2020-07-13T05:27:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You’re looking like the kind of ‘ally’ that’s all for Gay rights . . . but now just isn’t the right time for Gay marriage. > You’re looking like the kind of ‘ally’ that’s all for Trans rights . . . but now just isn’t the right time to discuss changes to public bathroom rules. > (As examples so don’t bother arguing it.) I mean, I can’t really argue it, since you’re making up bullshit that has literally nothing to do with anything I actually said. Those are “examples” of two things I don’t believe. So, thanks, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/168 "2020-07-13T05:31:09Z")
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, the rarely seen in captivity, Phil Ochs ‘Liberal’. CMC ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/169 "2020-07-13T06:41:50Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > Of course life goes on for me. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? …what is it, do you think, that “no skin in the game” actually means? It means that for you, life goes on. Trump might win again in a few months, and that might make you a bit sad. But life goes on. White supremacy may reign supreme. The advances of LGBT people over the last few years might go away. Woe vs Wade might get overturned. And that might make you sad. But you can just keep on living. Keep your head down. Post the occasional rant in the pit. For you: life goes on. > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > I want that to stop. Is that really so bad? You want it to stop. But you also want to tell the people who are getting hit by those cars how best to “fight the fight.” That isn’t your decision to make. They don’t give a fuck what you think. You are nothing but a self-confessed liberal fooldaddy. You believe you’ve got “Real Liberal cred.” But like almost everything else that’s just a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/170 "2020-07-13T10:44:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Oh I checked out of the civil conversation. Now I’m just telling you that on top of being ignorant and wrong, you’re clearly an infant who would rather name-call. And this draws a direct line toward your obsession with pulling down statues… _I’m_ not the one obsessed. That would be the person who felt strongly enough to make a Pit thread about it, speak to him. For the record, I’m not interested in pulling down statues, myself. But I’m not going to stand in the way of those who want to, and have legitimate reasons to do so. Because I’m not a fake ally. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/171 "2020-07-13T15:45:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > And really it’s; black mold today, leaky roof next week, broken door lock on Thursday, and on and on . . . and the floor NEVER get’s swept This. And the people in charge of actually fixing the building never seem to notice the mold, or the leak, or the broken door lock. We don’t need to fix the store, they say, we don’t see anything broken here. But if you start taking down the great big sign in front of the store – then they wake up and pay attention. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/172 "2020-07-13T15:53:29Z")
The Washington Redskins are changing their name and Mississippi has agreed to change their flag. I’d be willing to bet that these changes are at least in part due to the protesting. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so it helps to protest loudly. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/173 "2020-07-13T15:58:09Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > The Washington Redskins are changing their name and Mississippi has agreed to change their flag. {…} But, but … PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE!!!11! WHY ARE THEY WASTING TIME ON THIS? PEOPLE ARE DYING!!1! CMC ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/174 "2020-07-13T16:01:08Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > Well, first of all, I may not have as much skin in the game as those who are, as you correctly point out, fighting for the right to exist. I do, however, get to care whether those people achieve that right, and I do get to have an opinion, as a thoughtful person, as to how that might most effectively be achieved. And when the people concerned _ask_ for your opinion, then feel free to give it. Until then, keep it to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/175 "2020-07-13T16:46:14Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > The statues are bad. I get that. But priorities are real and inanimate fucking objects are not on them in this stupid-ass Trump-driven pandemic-having world we live in. That’s my entire point. Ok! If your argument is that there is only a fixed amount of “change capital”, and so people shouldn’t waste it on low-impact, low-hanging fruit, then I disagree with the premise, but ok. You believe that achieving the bigger things is being hindered by tackling the easy stuff. But, considering that people have been working on the bigger stuff for quite a while, I think it’s more reasonable to view statue destruction as a positive consequence of that longer-term work, or as a response to lack of progress on that longer-term work, as opposed to being something that is getting in the way of that work. As if the statue-destruction is just the thing that anti-BLM folks (for lack of a better phrase for "people who stand in the way of social justice) have been waiting for to finally stop the momentum on social justice. > [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > Stop wanking about changing names to disavow the existence of historical figures. But, if this is truly what you think pulling down statues is about; to “disavow the existance” of people, then you’re drinking some major kool-aid here. And I’ve got to wonder what else you’re completely turned around about with regards to the issue at hand. That said: > [@Velocity](#): > > It is perfectly possible to promote a cause in a way that inadvertently backfires rather than helps. But when you tell them that their way of arguing is backfiring, they think you are saying that their **cause** is bad, not that their **tactics** are bad. This is certainly true. But, who’s to say what’s backfiring? Is social justice (to use a broad term here) in a worse position today than it was this time last year? Ten years ago? More? Can you describe concrete ways in which the fight for equal rights for black Americans is set back compared to where it was in, say, February? I just don’t think it’s reasonable to claim that anything is “hurting the cause” when the whole (hyperbole maybe) country is talking about it with a focus and fervor that we haven’t seen in ages. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/176 "2020-07-13T17:34:04Z")
I’ll get involved in this thread. I don’t have enough aggravation in my life; I have to have more. Roland\_Orzabal, I agree with you. > [@Eonwe](#): > > Is social justice (to use a broad term here) in a worse position today than it was this time last year? Ten years ago? More? Can you describe concrete ways in which the fight for equal rights for black Americans is set back compared to where it was in, say, February? I think that in some ways, social justice is in a worse position now than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It’s hard to tell a bigot from an equal-opportunity asshole, but I notice more bigotry now than there used to be. I think progressives are doing for the fight against prejudice what PETA does for vegetarians, and we’d be better off if bigotry were seen as stupid and boring rather than taboo. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/177 "2020-07-13T21:15:49Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > Your logic is impeccable. I’m here for an honest discussion; care to tell me what exactly is wrong with asking that protest energy be focused on helping people not be killed for no fucking reason? Pulling down statues _is_ about helping people not be killed for no fucking reason. At least, it is as much about that as any other form of protest against institutionalized racism. Because pulling down a statue commemorating a white supremacist is an act of protest against systematic racism, every bit as much as going out in the streets and waving a sign is. They’re both about raising awareness of serious, systemic issues in American society and government, and shifting public support enough that it becomes possible to fix those issues. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/178 "2020-07-13T23:04:20Z")
Fixing systemic racism will take generations. Sometimes you have to put a few wins on the board just to keep spirits up. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/179 "2020-07-14T03:03:43Z")
I’ve lamented before the fact that when you write business emails, you have to be aware that you get exactly one point and no more. People generally read the first sentence you write and decide that’s the entire content of your message and they needn’t read any further. They will actually tell you later that they do not remember having been told whatever point 2 of 2 was, and they seem to be sincere. If you have two points, you have to write two emails, and you have to put time between them. I’m going to take some good advice I got from **BigT** via PM and bow out of this thread. Unlike some people who anger-flounce, I just feel I’ve said almost everything I have to say, and am not doing any good by continuing the argument. Neither will I pull that bullshit of “I’m done here” and returning to go “AND ANOTHER THING…”. I’m also not ragequitting the boards or anything stupid like that. Before I go, though, I’d like to leave one last message – the singleton point that I get, in hopes that it will register – to at least say I gave it the old college try. Point. Not. About. Statues. Point about making sure we are not pissing positive energy into wind. But, speaking of pissing into wind, I’ll give a sincere thanks to all who participated and take my leave. I hope I haven’t convinced too many of my fellow Dopers that I’m some sort of troll. Have a good one. Sincerely. I mean it. – Ian ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081/180 "2020-07-14T03:22:16Z")
Well, then maybe you shouldn’t have brought up statues in the first place… CMC [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-social-justice-great-again/915081.md?page=10)