# Make the case for jailing Marissa Alexander **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657 "2012-05-02T16:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/1 "2012-05-02T16:53:16Z")
Even without a SYG law, I don’t understand the prosecutorial discretion or how the case survived a motion for summary judgement–let alone how they made the case strong enough to convict. [Some background](http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/02/20-years-for-standing-her-ground): > [@](#): > > Alexander was in the master bathroom at the time, and Gray [the ex, who has a history of domestic abuse] tried to force his way in. When she came out, he screamed and cursed at her while preventing her from leaving the bedroom. “I was like forcing her back with my body,” reported Gray, who is seven inches taller than Alexander and outweighs her by 100 pounds. > > When Alexander managed to get by, she ran through the kitchen to the garage, where she says she realized she did not have the keys to her car, could not call for help because she had left her cellphone behind, and could not escape because the garage door was not working. Instead she grabbed her handgun from her car and headed back through the kitchen, where Gray confronted her again. > > In his deposition Gray admitted he “had told her if she ever cheated on me I would kill her” and during the fight said, “If I can’t have you, nobody can.” He conceded he “was going towards her” when Alexander fired a single shot, high and to his right, that went through the kitchen wall and lodged in the ceiling of the living room. Finally he left, along with his two sons. > > … > > On March 16, after deliberating for 12 minutes, a jury convicted Alexander on three counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. Although she injured no one, she faces a 20-year mandatory minimum sentence unless she can win a new trial. What am I missing–what’s the prosecutorial angle? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/2 "2012-05-02T16:57:26Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Even without a SYG law, I don’t understand the prosecutorial discretion or how the case survived a motion for summary judgement–let alone how they made the case strong enough to convict. > > [Some background](http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/02/20-years-for-standing-her-ground): > What am I missing–what’s the prosecutorial angle? The jury didn’t believe she was trapped in the garage. Instead they believed that she went to the garage to get the gun (at which time she was not in _imminent_ danger of seriously bodily harm) and returned to the house to exact revenge. You can’t get “summary judgment” in criminal cases (at least, not by that name), but you can move for a dismissal of the indictment for failure to make out the elements of the crime (or move for a directed verdict at the close of the prosecution’s case-in-chief). But the standard for that is that there is no genuine dispute of material fact (haha, that’s actually the standard for SJ), or, perhaps equivalently, for DV, no reasonable jury could find, on the facts presented in the prosecution’s case, that the alleged crime (and all its elements) occurred. In this case, it seems plain that there was a material factual dispute, namely, what was the situation of the accused when she was in the garage? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/3 "2012-05-02T17:08:39Z")
The woman was so terrified that she… let her ex quietly leave the house with the kids? I’m with **KG** : the jury did not find her testimony credible. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/4 "2012-05-02T17:38:10Z")
It seems to me like she was firing a “warning shot” which means she didn’t want to injure her ex, just scare him enough so that she could leave the house. I don’t see how a bullet that was not intentionally fired at a human being could be construed as aggravated assault. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/5 "2012-05-02T17:42:29Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Even without a SYG law, I don’t understand the prosecutorial discretion or how the case survived a motion for summary judgement–let alone how they made the case strong enough to convict. > > [Some background](http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/02/20-years-for-standing-her-ground): Can you find me a unbiased recounting of the facts and testimony the prosecutor elicited and the jury heard so I can actually develop an informed opinion? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/6 "2012-05-02T17:55:44Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I don’t see how a bullet that was not intentionally fired at a human being could be construed as aggravated assault. Assault is actually the threat of violence, battery usually encompasses actual physical harm. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/7 "2012-05-02T18:38:00Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Can you find me a unbiased recounting of the facts and testimony the prosecutor elicited and the jury heard so I can actually develop an informed opinion? If I could, I probably wouldn’t have posted a thread asking “what’s the prosecutorial angle?”. What I’m missing is that from a lot of background information in the various SYG threads is that she didn’t have a duty to retreat. That even if she went to the garage to get the gun, since she felt threatened (and was supported by the original deposition) in her home, she was within her rights to use deadly force–that if I’m threatened in our parlour and run upstairs to the bedroom to unlock the shotgun–the open window means that I can no longer go downstairs. I’m not following how things work. Oh, sorry about the summary judgement/dismissal mistake–it’s been eight years since law school and I only work in policy. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/8 "2012-05-02T19:23:53Z")
For what it’s worth, a large part of the Florida SYG law talks explicitely about home invasions: > [@](#): > > (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if: > > (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and > (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred. Since this was a domestic dispute and not a home invasion, the only part I can find that’s relevant is this: > [@](#): > > (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. My WAG, based on what little I know, is that the business about her being in the garage isn’t so much about whether or not she was able (or required) to retreat from there, but rather, was her explanation for why she went into the garage credible. She _could_ have just flat out said that she went to the garage to get her gun, which she was legally allowed to do, and nothing else matters. But instead, she said that she was afraid and was trying to get out through the garage, and just happened to come back with a gun. I can see why the jury might not have found that believable. Once she was in the house with the gun, the only thing left to decide is if she had a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. (I guess you could argue whether or not she was “attacked” at all, to use the language in the law.) Nothing in the OP’s summary suggest that the fight was particularly physical, so it depends on how severe this “history of domestic abuse” was. Given that he left peacefully after the shot was fired, you’d have to work to convince me (if I were on the jury) that she was justified in using deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/9 "2012-05-02T19:44:28Z")
**steronz** , that’s not “a large part of the Florida SYG law.” The Florida SYG law is subsection (3) only, not the whole section. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > If I could, I probably wouldn’t have posted a thread asking “what’s the prosecutorial angle?”. > > What I’m missing is that from a lot of background information in the various SYG threads is that she didn’t have a duty to retreat. That even if she went to the garage to get the gun, since she felt threatened (and was supported by the original deposition) in her home, she was within her rights to use deadly force–that if I’m threatened in our parlour and run upstairs to the bedroom to unlock the shotgun–the open window means that I can no longer go downstairs. I’m not following how things work. > > Oh, sorry about the summary judgement/dismissal mistake–it’s been eight years since law school and I only work in policy. That’s one of the problems with Stand Your Ground: it confuses the fuck out of people. The Castle Doctrine is the principle that a duty to retreat does not apply in one’s own home (and often in one’s business), and is codified in Florida law as §776.013, Florida Statutes. The doctrine itself generally does not apply to retreat from another resident of a shared home, and it does apply here since Gray was subject to a domestic violence injunction. However, it’s not a _carte blanche_ to shoot anyone who bugs you. It doesn’t matter if she felt threatened. What matters is whether she had a _reasonable belief_ that she would be killed or suffer great harm, and the jury seems to have decided that her belief was unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/10 "2012-05-02T21:46:25Z")
Or perhaps that her actions demonstrated she did not actually believe it at all? (That’s not a rhetorical question — it seems like that would be the issue, but IANAL.) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/11 "2012-05-02T22:12:19Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > . Given that he left peacefully after the shot was fired, you’d have to work to convince me (if I were on the jury) that she was justified in using deadly force. I doubt that proves anything. Even a violent asshole will actually leave when you pull a gun on them. Particularly if you fire a warning shot. They may be stupid cavemen but they are rarely that stupid. I know it worked for me once. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/12 "2012-05-02T23:16:37Z")
Maybe for SYG to apply, you actually have to shoot the guy? I can hardly think of an action that did not result in injury to anyone that would warrant a 20 year minimum sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/13 "2012-05-03T00:43:29Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > If I could, I probably wouldn’t have posted a thread asking “what’s the prosecutorial angle”. I’m sorry I didn’t take the OP as a request for research help. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/14 "2012-05-03T02:10:41Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m sorry I didn’t take the OP as a request for research help. Don’t sweat it, Prince of Denmark. I’m sure **Rnythmdvl** will understand if you excuse yourself from further participation in this thread of his which has caused you such evident dissatisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/15 "2012-05-03T03:06:56Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Don’t sweat it, Prince of Denmark. I’m sure **Rnythmdvl** will understand if you excuse yourself from further participation in this thread of his which has caused you such evident dissatisfaction. Though I often picture the multitude of posters and lurkers donning sackcloth and ashes whilst wailing “Where is Hamlet? What does he think? Where did I leave my box of leftovers from Bennigans?”, I fear you may be overestimating my importance to this thread. I think I can safely bow out until we actually hear more facts without causing massive riots or torture by forced Yanni listening. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-case-for-jailing-marissa-alexander/620657/16 "2012-05-04T00:34:31Z")
There are transcripts linked from the article. Supposedly she’d been hospitalised in the past. From what I can see this is more about domestic violence than race, and the jury assuming that because she was angry, she wasnt in danger from him, ie it wasnt really argued on the details of SYG at all. Otara