# Make the rich pay their fair share! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 1, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019 "2024-12-01T15:38:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/41 "2024-12-01T20:16:49Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The very rich can flee, too, if they decide that will make them better off. If the only thing keeping them in the US is the fact that they get to keep more of their wealth, it seems to me that’s a pretty good argument that they’re _not_ paying enough in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/42 "2024-12-01T20:34:19Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > “Fair share” implies some sort of equality or equity. And the author is correct – I have no interest in the rich paying what’s colloquially “fair.” I agree with your sentiments entirely (right down to metaphorically eating the rich), but I want to be pedantic here because it is precisely the point I was hoping to make by implication: fair does _not_ mean _equal_. Fairness speaks to equity, and equity is not synonymous with equality. As it happens, I _do_ believe that expecting higher income earners to pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes is “fair.” I strongly suspect the author of the WSJ article, the so-called “data point,” linked to in the OP is being willfully disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/43 "2024-12-01T20:42:13Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And it’s not _really_ class warfare until we drag the rich from their mansions in Greenwich and Beverly Hills and hang them from the nearest telephone pole. Hey now! I grew up in Greenwich! 😲😬 ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/44 "2024-12-01T20:43:59Z")
When they say the top 1% of income tax filers, is that limited to individuals and families filing personal income tax returns? I can’t access the article and I dint know if that’s clarified anywhere. Without reading the article….and knowing the slant of the WSJ….I suspect not, and I would not be at all surprised if they are including corporations and what they pay in corporate taxes. If this is the case, then 40% does seem really low. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/45 "2024-12-01T20:49:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You’re not wrong. It’s very much a sour-grapes type situation, not a realistic way to increase revenue growth. > > Beyond that, there’s often (always?) abject confusion about the difference between wealth and income involved in these discussions. Someone may be _worth_ a couple of million dollars, but have an income around 100k, for example. And people get those two confused all the time > > Most of the really wealthy people scream about on here are typically people who own a large stake in a very successful business, not who necessarily have commensurate incomes. There is also confusion and ignorance about how wealth actually gets generated and a total lack of perspective of wealth. Bill Gate’s father was a partner in a law firm and his mom had some sort of corporate job working for the CEO of IBM apparently. So in many people’s mind Bill Gates was “born rich”. By most standards his parents probably were “rich”. They weren’t “richest man in the world” rich. People complain "Amazon mistreats their workers and don’t pay them very well. Are we talking about working in an Amazon distribution warehouse in…wherever or working as an engineer for Amazon the FAANG (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google) tech company making $300k a year…where I’m sure they are mistreated in completely different ways? Do we “eat” the people who create billion and trillion dollar companies along with the hedge fund managers. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/46 "2024-12-01T20:56:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do we “eat” the people who create billion and trillion dollar companies… I suppose that depends in part on who you think it is that actually “create[s] billion and trillion dollar companies.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/47 "2024-12-01T20:57:35Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I suppose that depends in part on who you think it is that actually “create[s] billion and trillion dollar companies.” As long as no one is under the illusion that a customer base is involved it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/48 "2024-12-01T21:10:58Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > If the only thing keeping them in the US is the fact that they get to keep more of their wealth, it seems to me that’s a pretty good argument that they’re _not_ paying enough in taxes. Or look at it from the perspective of the Laffer curve (the actual Laffer curve; not the twisted mockery of it so often used by the Right): It’s true that, if taxes got to 100%, then nobody would ever do anything taxable (they’d leave for other countries, or stop working, or whatever). And it’s true, therefore, that there’s some optimal level of taxation, somewhere in between 0 and 100% that will raise the greatest level of revenue. And that’s all the original Laffer curve actually said, because it was literally just a freehand sketch on a napkin based on no data at all. So the problem then becomes finding that optimum level. That’s a job for calculus, but to summarize, the optimum level will be the level at which the marginal gain from increasing the tax percentage exactly offsets the marginal loss from people leaving the system. Which means that, at the optimum level, there will in fact be at least some folks leaving the system. Contrapositively, of course, this means that if (as is currently the case), nobody at all is leaving the system, then that’s absolute proof that taxes on the rich aren’t yet high enough. So we need to increase taxes on the rich until the rich do, in fact, start leaving. And then, once we reach that level, we shouldn’t even back off to a point just before that: We should take a look at the data we would then have (which we don’t have now), to estimate how many more would leave at various levels. And then use that information to set the tax rate to the ideal value, which will almost certainly be even higher. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/49 "2024-12-01T21:28:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s true that, if taxes got to 100%, then nobody would ever do anything taxable I’m not even sure that’s true. Or any more true than the idea that if we guarantee to each person that they will receive everything they need, regardless of their productivity, then they won’t do anything productive at all. Those are, I think, the two great falsehoods that are holding the US back and preventing it from becoming a no less productive but far more just and equitable society. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/50 "2024-12-01T22:13:19Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > “The top 1% of income-tax filers provided 40.4% of the revenue in 2022, according to recently released IRS data. > > ■ “The top 10% of filers carried 72% of the tax burden.” > > Read those numbers again: **for those in the top 1%, they paid 40% of all federal income taxes collected. And for those in the top 10%, they paid 72%.** Yes, but read those three words carefully- _federal income taxes_. They account for only 42% of the tax income collected. Also note- this was the Wall Street Journal- no longer such a solid source. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > An interesting Q about the WSJ article: By top 1% do they mean top 1% of all tax paid or top 1% of all income reported? Not necessarily even remotely the same thing, especially given the hefty complexity of fat-cat tax returns. Right. > **[Sources of Government Revenue in the United States](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/us-tax-revenue-by-tax-type-2023/)** > > Different taxes have different economic effects, so policymakers should always consider how tax revenue is raised and not just how much is raised. Social Security taxes- 24%- and the rich stop paying those on income quite early. Sales taxes, etc- 17%- more or less taxes on the poor and middle class. And then of course the very rich- the 1%ers, rig their taxes to pay less than their share- > **[Do the rich pay their fair share?](https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/stories/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/)** > > Billionaire wealth and corporate profits have surged. Are they paying their fair share? _Billionaires in the U.S. pay a smaller tax rate than most teachers and retail workers. Thanks to a tax code that favors income from wealth over income from work—and a slew of tax-avoidance strategies—the richest among us end up paying a smaller percentage of their income to the federal government than most working families._ And what is "fair? If we increased what the rich pay by a little more than double- could they afford that? Would they go hungry? Would their kids go unclothed? Would they be unable to get housing? No, no, and no. They could easily afford it- them the middle class and poor would have no Income tax burden- just part of the other 58% of the taxes collected. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/51 "2024-12-01T22:27:03Z")
‘The tax code should, in its majestic inequality, tax rich and poor alike on their luxury yachts, winter penthouse apartments, capital gains, and luxury car collections.’ ~ Anatole France, The Undead ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/52 "2024-12-01T22:30:43Z")
Doesn’t matter what the workers do, if there’s no company there because nobody invested the capital to get it going or expand it. I’d like to see all these poor people pull that trick off. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And then of course the very rich- the 1%ers, rig their taxes to pay less than their share- Is it illegal? I’d argue we should tighten that up, rather than be bitchy that they’re doing what _everyone_ does with their taxes, only on a bigger scale. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/53 "2024-12-01T22:32:16Z")
Speaking on behalf of the poor people of America, _we_ pull that off through investments by our union pension funds, retirement accounts and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/54 "2024-12-01T22:33:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but read those three words carefully- _federal income taxes_. They account for only 42% of the tax income collected. As I said above, > [@Bullitt](#): > > This is just a data point. and > [@Bullitt](#): > > I’m merely providing some data. And it’s just a tiny slice of the entire picture, the entire story. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/55 "2024-12-01T22:35:23Z")
And yet your entire OP was on the basis of that misleading statistic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/56 "2024-12-01T22:40:42Z")
Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/57 "2024-12-01T22:46:09Z")
Whatever Deal with it ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/58 "2024-12-01T22:53:21Z")
Just so we’re in agreement, we’re going to raise taxes on the wealthy, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/59 "2024-12-01T22:56:34Z")
Back to 70% marginal rate. Then no upper limit of Social Security taxes. (with modest increases in benefits). And no taxes on Social Security or Unemployment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019/60 "2024-12-01T23:05:49Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’m not even sure that’s true. Or any more true than the idea that if we guarantee to each person that they will receive everything they need, regardless of their productivity, then they won’t do anything productive at all. I think that people would still do things; they just wouldn’t do them in a taxable way. Like, if I won the mega-lottery, I’d still keep on teaching, because I love doing it; I just wouldn’t need to collect a paycheck for it any more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share/1011019.md?page=4)