# Make the soccer goal wider **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 1, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321 "2014-02-01T23:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/221 "2015-03-01T21:34:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, that’s partly because there are few formats where penalties are required. Sorry RNATB, that was the rather heavy-handed sarcastic point I was making. Of all the games played you rarely need penalties. What would be the point of changing the rules fundamentally in order to address those cases? Far better to come up with a more satisfactory method for those special cases in knock-out games. (personally I’d let the teams with the most corners then/or best disciplinary record through) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/222 "2015-03-01T23:58:31Z")
Agreed. Personally, I’m in favor of some sort of “extra time with fewer men on the field”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/223 "2015-03-02T00:35:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Far better to come up with a more satisfactory method for those special cases in knock-out games. (personally I’d let the teams with the most corners then/or best disciplinary record through) YES. A few links on alternatives to the penalty shootout, some repeated from a year ago: > **[penaltyshootouts.co.uk](http://www.penaltyshootouts.co.uk/alternatives.html)** > > This domain may be for sale! > **[Penalty shoot-out (association football)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_shoot-out_%28association_football%29)** > > In association football, a penalty shoot-out (previously known as kicks from the penalty mark) is a tie-breaking method to determine which team is awarded victory in a match that cannot end in a draw, when the score is tied after the normal time as well as extra time (if used) has expired (for example, in a FIFA World Cup, penalties are used in elimination matches; the round of 16, the quarter-finals, the semi-finals, and the final). In a penalty shoot-out, each team takes turns shooting at g... > **[10 Alternatives to Penalty Shootouts](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1195909-10-alternatives-to-a-penalty-shootout)** > > FIFA president Sepp Blatter has challenged Franz Beckenbauer to come up with an alternative to penalty shootouts—the go-to resolution for knock-out matches in football's premier tournaments... > **[A Simple Alternative To Soccer's Atrocious Penalty Kick Shootout](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpagels/2014/06/30/a-simple-alternative-to-soccers-atrocious-penalty-kick-shootout/)** > > The world's biggest sporting event really shouldn't be decided on random guessing and blind luck. > **[Attacker Defender Goalkeeper - A New Alternative to the Penalty Shootout](https://www.theadgalternative.com/)** > > ADG features a series of ten contests, where an attacker kicks off from 32 yards and has 20 seconds to score a goal against a defender and goalkeeper. Personally I would favor settling tied tournament matches with a game of badminton or maybe scrabble. Dumb? Certainly. _But superior to the penalty shootout._ ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/224 "2015-03-02T01:51:34Z")
Purely from a purist point of view (and I’m speaking not a soccer fan, but a sports nerd) - a penalty shootout is probably the best option. You can’t use rules like ‘Most Corners’ or ‘Best Disciplinary Record’ because suddenly you are taking a part of the game NOT directly related to the final outcome, and using it. Most games are pretty simple - there are basic ways to score - best score wins. You shouldn’t take something that is not a direct scoring action and use that to ‘add’ to the score in the event of a tie. Soccer is about scoring goals - score more than the opponent and you win. HOW you do that - whether by forcing corners or whatever, is the _ **method** _ you use, and one should not be favoured over the other. What if one side has more corners, but the other side has more throw-ins? Why should we count corners or throw-ins or yellow cards in the event of a tie - none directly score goals. Second, the skill being used in the shootout to decide the game (penalties) is one that is used in the game regularly, and it IS a standard scoring play, performed exactly as it is in the game. You could also use corners - ie take a corner kick and try and score a goal. The defense stops the attack when the ball leaves the 18-yard box, or the attacking team kick it over the endline. You could also take free kicks from 30-yards out, etc. Penalties are probably a quicker method and less luck is involved. The point is - use a standard soccer play that would occur normally under the rules of the game. Thirdly - the most popular alternative seems to be the ‘reduced number of players’ option. Fine, this would be fun to watch, it would be exciting etc - but it isn’t soccer. Soccer is 11-vs-11. Play with different numbers than that, and it’s not soccer. May as well play tiddlywinks, or snakes-and-ladders. I’m not a big fan of the penalty shootout - in my opinion, just keep playing until the winning goal is scored - whether that is extra time or replays. IE - keep playing soccer. I know we have the shootout because of the demands of the professional game - match scheduling, TV coverage etc. So if we have to have a set finish time for a game, I think a penalty shoot-out is the best option. It’s the best quick way to determine which team is better at soccer - by determining which team is better at scoring more goals than the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/225 "2015-03-02T02:06:31Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > Soccer scores should be akin to baseball scores, usually in the 2-7 range, rarely 1’s and 0’s. It would eliminate a lot of PK shoot-outs. Enlarging the goal would work, or reducing the number of players on the field in overtime to open things up for more scoring chances. Why? the grand majority of the human race loves soccer the way it is. What makes you think the scores should be any other way? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/226 "2015-03-02T09:15:58Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Missed The Tottenham v West Ham Match a couple of weeks back did you? Or a couple of years back when Newcastle were 4-0 down at home to the Woolwich Arsenal and came back to draw 4-4, and were a whisker away from winning it. Or Sweden pulling back from 4-0 down to 4-4 in the qualifying for the last World Cup. You know, the one that Germany won. > **[Germany in state of shock after '60 minutes heaven, 30 minutes hell'](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/oct/17/germany-shock-30-minutes-hell)** > > The debate into Germany's collective state of mind has reopened after Sweden fought back from 4-0 down to earn a draw in the World Cup qualifier ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/227 "2015-03-02T09:16:59Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Thirdly - the most popular alternative seems to be the ‘reduced number of players’ option. Fine, this would be fun to watch, it would be exciting etc - but it isn’t soccer. Soccer is 11-vs-11. Play with different numbers than that, and it’s not soccer. May as well play tiddlywinks, or snakes-and-ladders. So if someone gets sent off the game ceases to be soccer? Come off it, you’re looking a bit silly now. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/228 "2015-03-02T16:59:25Z")
I’ve always liked the “North American experiment” in penalty shootouts. As wiki indicates: > [@](#): > > Instead of a straight penalty kick, the shoot-out started 35 yards (32 m) from the goal and having five seconds to attempt a shot. The player could make as many moves as he could in a breakaway situation in the five seconds, then attempt a shot. This procedure is similar to that used in an ice hockey penalty shot. As with a standard shoot-out, this variation used a best-of-five-kicks model, and if the score was still level, the tiebreaker would head to an extra round of one attempt per team. It’d still be soccer related skill, but instead of shooting from a set position, it would be akin to a breakaway. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/229 "2015-03-02T17:31:01Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > So if someone gets sent off the game ceases to be soccer? Come half hour off it, you’re looking a bit silly now. Reducing the number of players could conceivably result in two goalkeepers playing each other. Penalties at the end of ninety minutes sounds like a good idea but raises the possibility of players spending twenty minutes standing around before playing the extra half hour. The Golden Goal seemed like a good idea but generally led to negative play in extra time, the exception being the 1996 European Championship semi-final, when the Germans had the ball in the net (disallowed) and then if Gazza hadn’t trimmed his toenails that morning England would have been in the final… Penalties aren’t the ideal solution, but I can’t think of a better one. Well… Maybe Stella Roulette… After extra time if the scores are still level the players sit crossed legged around the centre circle. A case (24 cans) of Stella Artois is wheeled onto the pitch and placed on a table on the centre spot. One of the cans has been vigorously shaken before being brought out. The player that opens the can that sends a spurt of the reassuringly expensive Belgian lager is deemed to have missed and the opposing side go through. I hope Blatter doesn’t read this, he might take it seriously. If the money’s right. Or the Monet, he’s probably got enough Picassos. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/230 "2015-03-02T18:34:49Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Reducing the number of players could conceivably result in two goalkeepers playing each other. Not _that_ much. Though I bet Bruce Grobbelaar wouldn’t have minded. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/231 "2015-03-02T19:06:03Z")
Re: reducing the number of players > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not _that_ much. Though I bet Bruce Grobbelaar wouldn’t have minded. Nor Schmeichal… those two would be entertaining. It might be worth trying it out in the FA Trophy or Vase to see how it goes. A few years back a no offside from free kicks rule was trialled in what was then the Vauxhall conference and didn’t really work. It would be interesting to see if it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/232 "2015-03-02T19:13:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Personally, I’m in favor of some sort of “extra time with fewer men on the field”. Pull one more guy off each side every X minutes, say. > [@mascaroni](#): > > Reducing the number of players could conceivably result in two goalkeepers playing each other. Except, if your team were down to two, and time came to pull again, wouldn’t you want your fastest guy left on the field? I’m not even sure your keeper should be one of the last two. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/233 "2015-03-02T19:24:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Pull one more guy off each side every X minutes, say. > > Except, if your team were down to two, and time came to pull again, wouldn’t you want your fastest guy left on the field? > > I’m not even sure your keeper should be one of the last two. Going into territory that even Blatter fears to tread… The ball goes out for a throw in… the opposition payer ignores the throw in, doesn’t touch the ball. You are the ref, What happens next? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/234 "2015-03-02T19:45:47Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Pull one more guy off each side every X minutes, say. > . As Rodney Marsh famously said to Alf Ramsey; “Pull me off at half time? All we get at QPR is a cup of tea.” He never played for England again. Gypsies have got long memories ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/235 "2015-03-03T02:14:18Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Most American sports are relatively high scoring in nature. One of the appeals of soccer to me is that it’s atypical of that. > > Great minds should be able to come up with a better alternative to deciding an elimination game than penalty kicks, however. Using penalty kicks to decide a soccer game is like using the best of five free throws to decide a tied NBA game, the best of five 35 yard field goals in deciding a tied NFL game or a home run derby to decide a tied baseball game. What’s the matter, too tired after 90 minutes of soccer? Too bad, get out there and score a goal! Sudden death style. First goal wins. Other teams are waiting to use the field? Too bad, play tomorrow. Television wants to go to another program? Too bad, the game’s not over. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/236 "2015-03-03T02:16:32Z")
Get rid of the goalie. ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/237 "2015-03-03T06:14:13Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Going into territory that even Blatter fears to tread… > > The ball goes out for a throw in… the opposition payer ignores the throw in, doesn’t touch the ball. > > You are the ref, What happens next? Book him for timewasting. Send him off if he does it again. Then a direct free kick. And if the one player now left on the pitch fails to score with his one touch… erm… ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/238 "2015-03-03T06:38:28Z")
make the goalies smaller, like they do for jockeys, hobbits and actors. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/239 "2015-03-03T10:04:01Z")
The conversation has quite rightly morphed into a discussion on how to decide who progresses in a tied knock-out situation. That is a perfectly decent subject for debate as we have so many choices open to us and all of them are arbitrary. There is no best case, only a “least worse”. We need to the method to be rewarding some desirable trait and to minimise the lottery effect if at all possible. **Penalties** - they have the benefit of being a test of (a rather limited) footballing skill and nerve and there is no denying they can be exciting. **Extended penalties** - as in the experiment mentioned above, or even make it a 30 second 3v3+1 attack vs defence. Played in a single half of the pitch you have 30 seconds to score and the defending team needs to put it out of play or beyond the half-way line. 3 attempts each side then sudden death. Has the benefit of being even more of a test of footballing skill (for both attack and defence) **Disciplinary record** - has the benefit of driving teams to watch their step (and if the refs were willing to flash the cards for abuse towards them then it could calm that down as well) **Numbers of corners** - would act as an incentive to attack when previously the temptation would be to sit on a draw, risk nothing and wait for penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321/240 "2015-03-03T14:18:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The conversation has quite rightly morphed into a discussion on how to decide who progresses in a tied knock-out situation. That is a perfectly decent subject for debate as we have so many choices open to us and all of them are arbitrary. There is no best case, only a “least worse”. We need to the method to be rewarding some desirable trait and to minimise the lottery effect if at all possible. > > **Penalties** - they have the benefit of being a test of (a rather limited) footballing skill and nerve and there is no denying they can be exciting. > > **Extended penalties** - as in the experiment mentioned above, or even make it a 30 second 3v3+1 attack vs defence. Played in a single half of the pitch you have 30 seconds to score and the defending team needs to put it out of play or beyond the half-way line. 3 attempts each side then sudden death. Has the benefit of being even more of a test of footballing skill (for both attack and defence) > > **Disciplinary record** - has the benefit of driving teams to watch their step (and if the refs were willing to flash the cards for abuse towards them then it could calm that down as well) > > **Numbers of corners** - would act as an incentive to attack when previously the temptation would be to sit on a draw, risk nothing and wait for penalties. I like the 3 on 3 + 1 thing. > [@Dahu](#): > > Book him for timewasting. Send him off if he does it again. Then a direct free kick. What rule has he broken? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/make-the-soccer-goal-wider/680321.md?page=11)