Aah, the Rolemaster “Character with no class” (seriously!) - all players get the same number of development points, and get to assign them to skills as they like. Makes for interesting play, IMO.
Okay, as much as I dislike class systems I think it is one to keep.
You have to decide what your design goal is. Is it to refine D&D into a slightly changed version? Then classes stay. Is it to simplify D&D and make it a more straightforward game that can draw in new players? Then you need classes (though dropping down to three classes with, say, three sub-specialties each could work really well). If you want to pitch the whole thing out the window and just make a good RPG then you shouldn’t use classes.
I don’t think I’m geek enough to contribute other than to ask: is this easily convertable to GURPS?
this is a very good question and agree should be answered at the onset of this project.
i like the idea of simplifing D&D. maybe drawing on other rpg to inspire us to strengthen our game in the parts where D&D is week, but sticking to the simplicity guidelines.
Though I dicker about how many we should have and what they mean, I do like the OP’s basic idea of a small number of base classes and larger number of sub-specializations.
I prefer classless point-buy systems, but classes (and their less restrictive cousins, splats a la White Wolf) serve an important purpose: they allow someone unfamiliar with system and/or setting to walk in, quickly flip through the book and say “I wanna play that”, and then get rolling. Pre-generated character concept. Classes are also much more idiot-proof at both character creation and advancement than more free-form options. Yeah, you can get yourself into a suboptimal build, but everything you really need is right there in the class.
So, I say we stick with classes. Oh, and also I think our goal should be a new, streamlined D&D. Not something new entirely.
The other good point to classes is you can tell as a glance what your party needs (if you’re trying to be helpful). You just need “Oh, we have two fighters and a rogue” to know that a healy-guy would probably be of use.
I;ve given it some though and I think Divine and Arcane should be kept apart. It’s a traditional divide in the game, and will enable some better definitions about what’s going on. Sure, in the end it’s all themes and we could just have one “class,” even, but I think it will help people form their characters better in their minds, and look at more iconic ideas.
You can still do that with no classes. You have a certain point buy to get arcane and a certain point buy to get divine. For a low point buy you get something similar to a Bard or Ranger’s advancement, and for much higher you get a wizard’s. If balanced properly you should be able to create just about any of the base classes.
Heck, if you really wanted you could eliminate levels entirely, just getting character points per every so many xp. This would be a great deal more difficult to balance though, I think.
Yes, I’ve already done that. But the downside is that you no longer have any identifiable archtypes. It’s also wickedly complex after a while. There are simply too many ioptions and possibilities for a casual game. Since I think most players don’t want super-complex rules, I believe keeping a more structured approach (which can allow for some flexibility) will be easier.
ok, we’ve decided on the 4 classes approach, and no one objected to the simple D&D approach. how about we talk about races.
i would like to keep most, but not all of the main races. if we do axe a race or 2, i suggest we get rid of 1/2 elves, 1/2 orcs and gnomes. i never really found anything iconic about these races.
if we’re feeling creative and want to create a new race, i suggest something that is cosmeticly very different then the baseline human, but keep the racial abilities toned down. something that you would want to play not because of it’s optimization potential, but for it’s fun factor.
I think you may be getting ahead of yourself here.
Okay, simplification is the way. Now the question becomes how simple.
If I may offer a realistic goal and one that could work I’d say that no portion of the system should take more than one 8.5x11 page. There have been many RPG’s that fit on a single sheet of notebook paper but for simple D&D (perhaps SDND?) that isn’t likely. So what I’d suggest is:
Character Creation (perhaps going to 2 pages given the variety of “pick one from this list” options D&D has)
Action Resolution
Combat
Magic
Equipment
Keeping it simple enough that anyone could pick it up and an adventure and charge in with only half an hour to an hour of work should be the ideal.
I’d say avoid anything that ties to a setting such as a new race. I even think there’s too many ones in usual D&D but to stick with the stated goal it is necessary to keep the traditional core D&D ones.