# Making America great again (no, not Trump) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389 "2020-07-05T16:30:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/41 "2020-07-07T14:47:13Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The pendulum of idiocy has swung far to the right at the moment, but eventually it will swing back. Don’t fall under the illusion that the the long-term solution lies with addressing the short-term issue. Yep. That’s why I said “And they need to be prepared to vote out anyone who doesn’t live up to their stated ideals, regardless of party.” Right now, it is necessary to root out the Republican Party almost entirely, because they are the biggest impediment to responsible government in the US. But ultimately, the US needs two parties that are both worthy of support by reasonable people, so that if one elected official is shown to be corrupt or incompetent, voters can vote them out with a clear conscience. When your choices are between “The guy lining his pockets with government tax dollars while not passing any useful laws” and “The guy shouting “Jews will not replace us!” who wants to toss my transgender nephew in a concentration camp”, there’s no chance for a real democracy. ---
**Author:** ![barkodogo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/barkodogo/32/3911_2.png) [@barkodogo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barkodogo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/42 "2020-07-07T14:58:21Z")
I think a lot of people need to ask themselves what “great” means in the context of the US. When specifically was America great and who was it great for? It’s flat out propaganda and always has been. We make our kids stand up every day in school and pledge to the flag, that’s not quite the confidence you’d expect such an inherently great place to have. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/43 "2020-07-07T16:58:48Z")
I’m in my forties, and I’ve never understood why people think the US is the greatest country in the world. For my entire life we’ve just been one of several free countries, many of which are as good or better in many ways. I mean, yes, the US has been good _enough_ for all this time (note: I’m a white male), but it wasn’t all that _great_. And of course now it’s not even all that good anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/44 "2020-07-07T17:41:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > ’Im in my forties, and I’ve never understood why people think the US is the greatest country in the world Most of those people have never traveled outside the United States. It’s easy to call a country the “greatest” if it’s the only one you’ve ever been to. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/45 "2020-07-07T19:13:01Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Most of those people have never traveled outside the United States. It’s easy to call a country the “greatest” if it’s the only one you’ve ever been to. It’s not just trump supporters though. Even on left-leaning media, often a guest will slide in “America is the greatest country in the world” and everyone generally nods along. It’s a really enduring meme, and, as I say, a dangerous one I think. Regardless of how the world changes in the next few decades, I think this opinion needs to change. The US is best at the things it’s best at, and for many other things may aspire to improve. Humility is required, as in some cases this may involve playing catch up 😮 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/46 "2020-07-07T19:20:53Z")
I’ll believe that America is no longer great when there are more people willing to risk their lives to sneak _out_ of the country than there are people willing to risk their lives to sneak _in_ to the country illegally. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/47 "2020-07-07T19:30:34Z")
As one that risked his life sneaking in to the country illegally, (civil war in the old country, got amnesty from “Saint” Reagan" because he had some shame, and later I became a citizen) I will have to say that your statement there is a very ignorant thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/48 "2020-07-07T19:32:41Z")
By all means, then, educate me. Why is it ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/49 "2020-07-07T19:34:01Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I’ll believe that America is no longer great when there are more people willing to risk their lives to sneak _out_ of the country than there are people willing to risk their lives to sneak _in_ to the country illegally. Is that a serious point? Many countries have higher net migration and/or greater illegal immigration than the US (scaled per capita of course). It’s not much of a bragging point let alone something that would make the US the GOAT #1 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/50 "2020-07-07T19:42:18Z")
Well, besides you ignoring someone that experienced what you ponder about that is telling you that you are grossly ignoring the latest news… 🙂 It is clear that you have been missing the news about how asinine Trump and the Republicans have been regarding the treatment of refugees, dreamers or the ones fleeing violence. The very item you use as “America being great” only works by you ignoring the current dismantling of human rights by the current administration, not a great thing indeed. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/51 "2020-07-07T19:58:16Z")
It’s my understanding that very few Canadians try to sneak into the US. Canada, therefore, is clearly a better country than the US. That’s how this works, right? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/52 "2020-07-07T21:16:04Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I’ll believe that America is no longer great when there are more people willing to risk their lives to sneak _out_ of the country than there are people willing to risk their lives to sneak _in_ to the country illegally. If people have to sneak out of the U.S., we won’t even be minimally acceptable. People snuck out of Cuba and the U.S.S.R. To leave a democracy, you pack your bags and say, “See ya.” I’ve feared for my country since 9/11. We forgot to be the land of the free and the home if the brave, passed the Patriot Act, pissed on the Bill of Rights, and the terrorists won. You don’t become great by sitting on your couch screaming, “USA! USA!” You become great by breaking your ass, day in and day out, and waking up in the middle of the night wondering if you’re good enough, and then if you’re lucky, years later, much to your astonishment, people start to say you’re great. Too many want the honor without the effort, but that’s not how it works. That’s never how it works. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/53 "2020-07-07T21:39:29Z")
Please don’t take this as an attack - not really attacking you or your post. But when I read your post, I am reminded of what a lot of Americans _think_ is ‘great’ about America, which is our economic, political, and military power. But like Rome, like the UK, like France, like the Soviet Union, we are learning (often the hard way) that power is a curse. Global power tends to result in less domestic freedom, less domestic tranquility, and over time, even less prosperity. In the case of Rome, for example, the republic decayed and eventually became a dictatorship in large part because of Roman expansion. Perpetual conquest brought back cheap labor in the form of slaves, which displaced the “working class” of their time. This lead to increased friction between the plebeians and the patricians. It led to political polarization and mutual distrust. Historians can debate the specifics, but one turning point, arguably, was the ascent of the Gracchi brothers (the social justice warriors of their day). Their public appeal for land reforms and redistribution of wealth eventually led to the murder of Tiberius Gracchus, and the senate and military grew hostile to the assembly (their version of the House). We can see many of the same forces and tensions playing out today. America needs to be less obsessed with projecting unilateral power and seek to build global coalitions with other countries that have democratic values. It’s a form of mutual self-defense against countries like China and Russia, who are more hostile to democratic rule and human rights. To get there, though, we have to have a change in values. We have to value and embrace economic inequality. What’s horrifying about the Trump/McConnell era is that they’ve allowed the US to abandon its global partnerships, which puts China in a prime position to redefine the rules the world lives by. But more than that, the growing wealth inequality threatens to snuff out democracy and liberty here due to the same kinds of forces that resulted in Rome’s demise. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/54 "2020-07-07T23:14:56Z")
> [@barkodogo](#): > > I think a lot of people need to ask themselves what “great” means in the context of the US. When specifically was America great and who was it great for? It’s flat out propaganda and always has been. We make our kids stand up every day in school and pledge to the flag, that’s not quite the confidence you’d expect such an inherently great place to have. IMHO our greatest days were the last of the Obama days. The way I see it, we had been making steady progress as a country since the days of FDR right up until Trump took over. Since then we’ve slid back quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/55 "2020-07-08T00:57:02Z")
In terms of race and inclusion, I’d absolutely agree. In terms of economics, we’ve been fucked for decades. And I can’t say it enough: Reagan was a terrible, awful president. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389/56 "2020-07-08T04:42:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think people lay too much blame on the Electoral College for Trump winning (and I’d prefer this not become another EC thread.) I agree, here, Trump campaigned to win the EC, not the popular vote, he didn’t invest much in California, for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-america-great-again-no-not-trump/914389.md?page=2)