# Making foie gras is cruel. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648 "2012-03-03T16:40:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/21 "2012-03-03T20:28:50Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Under your logic, if a beloved food product that is not an essential component of anyone’s diet can ONLY be produced if a highly sentient animal is subjected to years of intense pain, you would still be for it. I find that immoral. They call it “ham” and “bacon”. It’s pretty fucking good, isn’t it ? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/22 "2012-03-03T20:43:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > They call it “ham” and “bacon”. It’s pretty fucking good, isn’t it ? Pigs are subjected to years of intense pain? How? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/23 "2012-03-03T20:49:57Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Pigs are subjected to years of intense pain? How? Battery farmed pigs are penned in habitacles barely larger than they are (sometimes multiple pigs to a pen) ; and they are quite often arranged and suspended in such a way that all of their weight rests on their hindquarters. More, leaner ham that way, you see ? I’ll let you imagine the cramping. Or the madness. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/24 "2012-03-03T21:04:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Battery farmed pigs are penned in habitacles barely larger than they are (sometimes multiple pigs to a pen) ; and they are quite often arranged and suspended in such a way that all of their weight rests on their hindquarters. More, leaner ham that way, you see ? > > I’ll let you imagine the cramping. Or the madness. That practice is immoral, then. To not object to that is also immoral, a position which you and Martin Hyde seem to have. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/25 "2012-03-03T21:13:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Perhaps you did not read my post earlier . . . Perhaps you did not click my link. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/26 "2012-03-03T21:43:12Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > That practice is immoral, then. To not object to that is also immoral, a position which you and Martin Hyde seem to have. I never said I didn’t object to battery farmed ham & bacon. As a matter of fact, I kinda do. Not enough to make the effort to check whether every sausage I buy (and eat) was made by some ethical farmer I know and trust though. My sister never stops browbeating me about it. Easy for her to say - she’s a vet operating smack in the middle of Hickville, Auvergne. Of \*course \*she knows the right farmers and slaughterhouses. More power to her. I live in the big city & go to the French equivalent of 7/11. Fucking sue me. And you wanna know the funny thing ? She loves foie gras. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/27 "2012-03-03T22:19:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > To me, you can’t view something as being of moral worth if you also think you should be allowed to own that creature and profit from it as a piece of chattel property. > > It’s the same reason it was a fallacy that Southern slave owners could be doing right by their slaves. You might talk a good game about how you were taking care of them, how you treated them well, but if you’re holding them as property to me you are practicing something which says you do not view them as beings worthy of moral status, whatever rhetoric you might spew to pretty it up. So in this case, you would not view a person who beats, rapes, and tortures his slaves as being morally different than a person who treats his slaves gently, and feeds them foie gras? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/28 "2012-03-04T00:02:15Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Maybe you skipped over the part where I said “Here’s some impartial coverage of the controversy” 😉 > I tried to present both sides. > Here’s an [not impartial](http://www.peta.org/features/Kate-Winslet-Exposes-Foie-Gras-Cruelty.aspx) opinion. Don’t watch this if you’re sensitive. > BTW; I’m not a menber of PETA. So you agree that you have offered no impartial citation that production of foie gras is cruel? If so, you’re just assuming your conclusion and there’s no argument. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/29 "2012-03-04T00:06:14Z")
I met a hippie couple, back in the day, in New Mexico (Taos?) who gathered wool from sheep by combing them. Wierd, huh? They also gathered eggs by shooing the hens off the roosts, raised the “drop” calves from their dairy cows for meat. All the critters ran free on the farm, but were penned at night. A couple big dogs kept the coyotes away. They told me that the house was built of straw bales stuccoed over. I happened to see a documentary on PBS years later about building homes with straw bales then covering the outsides with stucco. Of course we can’t actually live like that, but I still think it was pretty cool. Well, I’ll be [damned](http://southernnewmexico.com/Articles/Southwest/Catron/AstrawbalehouseinDatilNew.html), it can still be done! Anyway, there is a difference between “can’t” and “don’t want to”. Did I mention that I’m not a member of PETA? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/30 "2012-03-04T00:09:54Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > So you agree that you have offered no impartial citation that production of foie gras is cruel? > > If so, you’re just assuming your conclusion and there’s no argument. I rarely answer queries that begin with the word “so”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/31 "2012-03-04T00:16:58Z")
The force-feeding of geese looks cruel because of the tube inserted in their necks and we think they’d gag to death. However, geese don’t have a gag reflex and gorging comes natural to them. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/32 "2012-03-04T00:21:39Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > So in this case, you would not view a person who beats, rapes, and tortures his slaves as being morally different than a person who treats his slaves gently, and feeds them foie gras? I view _human slaves_ as people and **deserving** of all societal rights and privileges. I think **human slavery** is an abomination and anyone who practices it is acting in a gravely immoral manner. No level of _nice treatment_ for the slave can make the gravely immoral act of **enslavement** moral or acceptable. However, since I view slaves not as property but as people (because they are human beings) I view enslaving a person and then raping and beating and torturing them to be worse than enslaving a person and then pampering them. However both are **gravely immoral**. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/33 "2012-03-04T00:24:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps you did not click my link. Correct, I assumed you were posting a serious link about humane foie gras production which is a real thing practiced at least by some farmers in Spain that I’m aware of and probably elsewhere. I didn’t realize instead you were just posting links to comic strips. Since I’m already familiar with humane production of foie gras I didn’t think I needed to read about it again since I’m fairly familiar with it (and the fact that it is considered to have an inferior taste.) ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/34 "2012-03-04T00:33:03Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The force-feeding of geese looks cruel because of the tube inserted in their necks and we think they’d gag to death. However, geese don’t have a gag reflex and gorging comes natural to them. The process doesn’t stop at a tube down the throat, but duckd/geese do object even to that. They do not seek the tube method as a means of eating. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/35 "2012-03-04T00:40:44Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > The process doesn’t stop at a tube down the throat, but duckd/geese do object even to that. They do not seek the tube method as a means of eating. Also, I assume it hurts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/36 "2012-03-04T00:54:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Since I’m already familiar with humane production of foie gras I didn’t think I needed to read about it again since I’m fairly familiar with it (and the fact that it is considered to have an inferior taste.) Have you tried it? Or any kind of foie gras? Or even, ordinary pate of non-fattened-up goose livers? (I can never find **any** of those around here, the only pate I can find is made of pork livers.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/37 "2012-03-04T00:55:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Also, [this guy](http://www.wohlmut.com/kevin/Recipes/TomDBug-FoieGras.gif) figured out how to make “free range” foie gras simply by allowing the geese to gorge **themselves** for the winter, which they do instinctively, if “you convince them that they’re not domesticated,” that is, raise them on a farm designed to simulate a wild environment. So, a pate of the livers of geese fattened as above would have an “inferior taste” to a pate of the livers of force-fed geese? Really? I wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/38 "2012-03-04T00:59:47Z")
> [@spankthecrumpet](#): > > I have extensive experience with chickens and I assume geese are fairly similar. They are far too stupid to deserve any real protection; I doubt they can suffer in a meanigful sense. Perhaps this point also deserves further discussion. Anyone disagree with it? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/39 "2012-03-04T01:07:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps this point also deserves further discussion. Anyone disagree with it? I should stay out of that one. Until recently I thought the term “foie gras” was french for “artificial turf”. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648/40 "2012-03-04T01:36:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Have you tried it? Or any kind of foie gras? Or even, ordinary pate of non-fattened-up goose livers? (I can never find **any** of those around here, the only pate I can find is made of pork livers.) Never had anything marketed as “humane foie gras” and since it’s a niche thing I’m pretty sure I’ve never had it. Obviously I can’t compare, but Gordon Ramsay should serve as a pretty good “expert witness” on the taste of fine dining foods and he easily identified the humane vs regular production foie gras and said it was not as fatty or as rich (which is the desired attribute of foie gras.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-foie-gras-is-cruel/614648.md?page=3)