# "Making love to his tonic and gin." And other couplets we never say. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 4, 2018, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727 "2018-09-04T05:41:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/21 "2018-09-04T13:28:50Z")
Sometimes it’s the sound of the words- I noticed a while ago, most of my cousins are a pair of siblings and everyone says the older one first… except with one pair. They’re always said younger first. The older just has a name that sounds _wrong_ when said first. I can’t quite put my finger on why. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/22 "2018-09-04T14:17:40Z")
In linguistics, these are called irreversible binomials. There is of course a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_twins_%28linguistics%29). ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/23 "2018-09-04T14:27:56Z")
Not necessarily the same as the OP but in English we do have an [order for adjectives](http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160908-the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know). Opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose. That article also covers the “rule of ablaut reduplication”: “Reduplication in linguistics is when you repeat a word, sometimes with an altered consonant (lovey-dovey, fuddy-duddy, nitty-gritty), and sometimes with an altered vowel: bish-bash-bosh, ding-dang-dong. If there are three words then the order has to go I, A, O. If there are two words then the first is I and the second is either A or O. Mish-mash, chit-chat, dilly-dally, shilly-shally, tip top, hip-hop, flip-flop, tic tac, sing song, ding dong, King Kong, ping pong.” Neither of these rules explains the examples given here, but they do hint that English speakers love their rules and we all know how to stick to them. Or something. ETA: Ninja’d by **markn+** who had a well better answer than mine! With a cite! ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/24 "2018-09-04T14:31:33Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No Spoons? ☹ Ran off with the dish. Spoons ran away with the dish? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/25 "2018-09-04T14:41:40Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > Ran off with the dish. > > Spoons ran away with the dish? :rolleyes: If it was [Lieutenant Dish](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/mash/images/3/3c/Karen_philipp-alan-alda-MASH.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120915154114), I can understand why he did. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/26 "2018-09-04T15:31:20Z")
For some binomials, the order is fixed due to history, just like any other fossilized idiom, like “better late than never”. No one would rearrange this to something like “never is worse than late”. There is also an interesting process called “ablaut reduplication” however which determines the original order in some cases. The rule determines the order based on the vowels in the words: > [@](#): > > If there are three words then the order must be I, A, O. If there are two words then the first is I and the second is either A or O. That’s why we say “zig zag”, “mish mash”, “jibber jabber”, “pitter patter”, “tick tock”, “splish splash”, etc. but never the reverse. Like many aspects of grammar, all English speakers use this rule but very few could articulate it. > **[This Weird Grammar Rule Is Why We Say “Flip Flop” Instead of “Flop Flip”](https://www.rd.com/article/ablaut-reduplication/)** > > Something just sounds wrong about flop flip, pong ping, and zag zig. Turns out there's a secret English rule that explains exactly why. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/27 "2018-09-04T15:39:25Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Cats and dogs In Die hard With A Vengeance, [this is the shibboleth that trips up a German thief posing as a police officer (see at 0:07).](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yQbpoQ0hY) He speaks with no discernible German accent, but when he mentions expecting that “it’s gonna rain dogs and cats”, his disguise is blown. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/28 "2018-09-04T20:47:41Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > OP asks “why?” and just about every single response ignores that. Because Dopers. Peanutbutter & Jelly ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/29 "2018-09-04T22:02:03Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No Spoons? ☹ There is no spoon. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/30 "2018-09-04T22:34:13Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > OP asks “why?” and just about every single response ignores that. telephone poles, because motorcycles don’t have doors ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/31 "2018-09-04T22:59:34Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > ETA: Fork and knife. I use both variants of this, though this one is more common. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/32 "2018-09-04T23:26:13Z")
Similar issue: In my circle of friends who are couples, almost everyone is referred to by the man’s first name and then the woman’s first name. But… for almost all of them, the man’s name has one syllable and the woman’s has two: Bill and Mary Jim and Jenny John and Carrie Jeff and Amy (names have been changed to protect the innocent) I always wondered if this was because it just flows better with the one-syllable name coming first, or because it is more natural to pronounce the masculine name first. I suppose one could raise another question: why do most men go by one-syllable variants of their names, while most women go by two-syllable versions? Yes, obviously there are exceptions, but I think the majority follow this rule. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/33 "2018-09-04T23:30:42Z")
Probably because “and” often sounds very similar to a girl/woman’s name. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/34 "2018-09-05T01:20:10Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Ringo, George, Paul and John During the late-60’s “Paul is dead” craziness, _Mad_ magazine wrote: _Ringo, George, Paul and John Played a trick and put us on Dropped hints Paul was dead as nails And rocketed their record sales_ ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/35 "2018-09-05T02:23:28Z")
I wonder whether _Two Smoking Barrels, Stock and Lock_ would have been a somewhat different movie. It certainly doesn’t roll off the tongue as well. Garfunkel and Simon. Mary, Paul and Peter. Cream and peaches. Kaboodle and kit. Them good old boys drinking Rye and Whisky. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/36 "2018-09-05T02:49:36Z")
Yeah, but there _is_ [Garfunkel & Oates](https://youtu.be/7yxQKxm76TQ) (because, somehow, “Oates & Garfunkel” would just sound wrong) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/37 "2018-09-05T02:54:13Z")
But no Oates and Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/38 "2018-09-05T03:01:45Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > OP asks “why?” and just about every single response ignores that. Because Dopers. I answered it in post #5. There is no rhyme or reason. And that is the truth. It just sounds right or wrong, as opposed to wrong or right.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jumpbass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jumpbass/32/147_2.png) [@Jumpbass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumpbass)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/39 "2018-09-05T15:16:59Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > One that is awkward is when you have a friend named Jim with whom you somewhile or muchwhile consort. To speak of your combined activities, you would begin with “_Jim and I …_”, but in common speech patterns, it tends to slide into almost “Jiminey”. So, you end up finding ways around that phrasing. My best friend since childhood is named Jim. I always thought it came out as “Gemini”. My mom would tease me and say, “Who’s Gemini?” I usually end up overpronouncing it. Jim. And. I. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727/40 "2018-09-05T15:31:26Z")
Re: couples’ names, e.g., Bob and Carol, it does vary according to which family is referring to them. Carol’s family is more likely to say “Carol and Bob,” and Bob’s family to say “Bob and Carol.” I’m not sure if that rule works with friends. Do Alice’s friends say they’re going to “Alice and Ted’s” or “Ted and Alice’s”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-love-to-his-tonic-and-gin-and-other-couplets-we-never-say/820727.md?page=3)