# Making society less of a "viewpoint minefield" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2020, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785 "2020-07-08T22:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/181 "2020-07-12T12:20:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Nope. You are just so invested in winning a rhetorical victory that you are missing the nuance from what I’ve said. If I had only been interested in a rhetorical victory, I would’ve stopped replying long ago; I have, rather, been trying to explain, but in vain, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/182 "2020-07-12T16:11:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I know exactly what you were talking about. But this so called “cancel culture” isn’t a problem. We are talking about a handful of cases, and most of those cases have been blown out of proportion. The cases that were listed by the Harper’s letter were all debunked in the rebuttal. You’ve got nothing to worry about. I agree with some caveats. IMHO the issue just can not be seen as having a solution like “one size fits all”, I do think many of the signatories are sincere, but they are falling for one of the most controversial ways to set policy. Many times in the past I encountered similar letters, with many who are not experts on the specific issues, trying to pass opinions as if the letter or petition was evidence to support scientific racism, climate change denial, increase of incarceration rates, etc. It is an attempt at making an opinion to be more valid thanks to the number of signatories… forgetting that in the end, it remains an opinion. So, I agree with you on that; while there is a point to consider from the original letter, it is very important to check the context. When one can see that most of the items they complain about are not as they imply, one has to realize how underwhelming was their approach to the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/183 "2020-07-12T17:08:38Z")
I’m so old I can remember when people on the left were outraged over the first episode of ‘cancel culture’, back when it was called the Hollywood Blacklist. Back then it was Communists in entertainment who were being ‘canceled’, and we’ve been hearing how horrible that was for 60 years now. Dalton Trumbo became a left-wing folk hero after he was canceled. Now the same people who thought that was a huge injustice of the 20th century are bringing it back, scaled up to the entire society and not just a few Hollywood writers. And they think it’s totally okay. I guess the concept of destroying the livelihoods of people for their political opinions is only bad when the other side does the canceling. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/184 "2020-07-12T17:14:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Back then it was Communists in entertainment who were being ‘canceled’, and we’ve been hearing how horrible that was for 60 years now. Dalton Trumbo became a left-wing folk hero after he was canceled. > > Now the same people who thought that was a huge injustice of the 20th century are bringing it back, scaled up to the entire society and not just a few Hollywood writers. And they think it’s totally okay. “Now the same people”? And no, many like me are reporting that it is not ok, one has to look at this on a case by case basis, and so far there was an example that I would not agree it was ok. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/185 "2020-07-13T14:40:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There’s a difference between someone being ignorant or having a bad moment, which is educable and forgivable, and being a confrontational entitled, bigoted, bully asshole. I think the former should be confronted but not fired or canceled, but the latter should be shamed and forced into submission. I don’t know if you meant to imply these are the only options, but what about just being okay with people having different opinions, without feeling obliged to re-educate them or force them into submission? The fact many people can easily remember a time when gay marriage would have seemed a laughable concept is a good indication that what is currently popular is not necessarily correct. We couldn’t have got to where we are today if no one was ever allowed to disagree with prevailing views. Damn, when I learned about McCarthyism in school, it wasn’t as a blueprint to follow. I’m amazed how many people seem to be excusing it or endorsing it in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/186 "2020-07-13T18:05:46Z")
This is a topic that can be “great debated” virtually forever, but as long as there are “viewpoints” there will be those that disagree with them and hence the minefields. ---
**Author:** ![bmasters1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@bmasters1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmasters1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/187 "2020-07-15T18:10:48Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I am sure that Noam Chomsky gets death threats for his leftist political opinions despite being a supporter of free speech for the far right. So in other words, it’s as if the right is saying, basically, “It’s not good enough for you to allow us the freedom to say what we want to say-- you are also required to believe/agree with everything we say, or you’re still in trouble”-- is that it? ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/188 "2020-07-15T18:27:26Z")
There is an increasing intransigence everywhere you look, in virtually every nation as well as on the international arena. This incapacity to listen to opposing viewpoints seems to be an expression of the modern tribalism toward which human beings have evolved under the influence of media and social media networks. The epoch of modernism when professionals were revered and their opinion was respected has been replaced by post-modernism where neotribalism causes people to yearn for an idealized past when things were simpler and everything was better. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/189 "2020-07-16T02:11:12Z")
> [@bmasters1](#): > > So in other words, it’s as if the right is saying, basically, “It’s not good enough for you to allow us the freedom to say what we want to say-- you are also required to believe/agree with everything we say, or you’re still in trouble”-- is that it? Who is saying you are in trouble? Donald Trump? If you work for CNN, or the New York Times, yes. DJT is a man of the right who, I would agree, effectively says that. The Harper’s letter signatories? No. Few of them are on the right of the American political spectrum. And, as far as I can tell, none would say you are in trouble. I don’t subscribe to the New York Times because I expect to believe/agree with what I read. I do expect to be exposed to a wide range of views I perhaps don’t agree with, whether those of Bernie Sanders, Vladimir Putin or Tom Cotton. I’m not canceling my subscription, but I am unhappy that James Bennet and Bari Weiss are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/190 "2020-07-16T18:02:16Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > The epoch of modernism when professionals were revered and their opinion was respected has been replaced by post-modernism where neotribalism causes people to yearn for an idealized past when things were simpler and everything was better. I can’t help but point out the irony of your idealized characterization of “modernism”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/191 "2020-07-16T18:04:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > your idealized characterization of “modernism”. [sigh] I know, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/192 "2020-07-17T04:00:09Z")
Where have all these staunch defenders of freedom to voice unpopular opinions been while people were, say, getting fired for flipping off a Trump motorcade while bicycling, or being threatened, doxxed and harassed for saying uncomplimentary things about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians? It’s especially eyebrow-raising to see Bari Weiss, of all people, complaining about “cancel culture” and retaliation against people for expressing unpopular views. As [this article comments](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/bari-weiss-resignation-new-york-times-victim-cancel-culture), > [@](#): > > Dating back to her days as an undergraduate student at Columbia University, the columnist has frequently been accused of working to silence Palestinians and smear Israel’s critics. > > At Columbia in New York in the mid-2000s, Weiss was part of a campaign accusing several Arab-American professors critical of Israel, including [Joseph Massad](https://www.middleeasteye.net/users/joseph-massad), of racism against Jewish students and demanded their termination. > > The campaign, which included a movie titled Columbia Unbecoming, prompted then-Congressman Anthony Weiner - whose political career later ended in a sexting scandal involving a teenager - to call on Columbia to [fire Massad](https://www.juancole.com/2011/06/top-things-anthony-weiner-has-said-that-are-worse-than-sexting.html). […] > > Weiss did not cease her attacks on Israel’s critics as a professional columnist. […] > > “There is no issue of legitimate inquiry which is more likely to get you ‘cancelled’ than support for Palestinian rights,” progressive commentator Krystal Ball [wrote on Twitter](https://twitter.com/krystalball/status/1283084996979326977?s=20) on Tuesday. > > “That Bari Weiss, an intellectual architect of that regime of censorship, has the audacity to ‘self-expel’ and cry cancellation is outrageously hypocritical.” The “regime of censorship” that Ball is critiquing isn’t some historical instance of retaliation that used to be happening a comfortable number of decades ago to people who had the audacity to speak up for, e.g., gay rights or racial integration. This is retaliation that’s [happening these days](https://thegrayzone.com/2018/08/22/meet-the-owner-of-canary-missions-anonymous-anti-palestinian-blacklisting-website/) to people who publicly disagree with so-called “centrist” views that Weiss complains she’s getting too much pushback for. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/193 "2020-07-18T01:01:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Where have all these staunch defenders of freedom to voice unpopular opinions been while people were, say, getting fired for flipping off a Trump motorcade while bicycling, or being threatened, doxxed and harassed for saying uncomplimentary things about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians? Real defenders were there, it’s just that most people, whether on the left or the right, are emotional and not very capable of a relatively unbiased analysis of pros and cons of issues. Social media seems to be making things worse. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/194 "2020-07-18T03:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > At Columbia in New York in the mid-2000s, Weiss was part of a campaign accusing several Arab-American professors critical of Israel, including [Joseph Massad](https://www.middleeasteye.net/users/joseph-massad), of racism against Jewish students and demanded their termination. So, in other words, someone else demanded the terminations, not her. Is that it? Now, it there is evidence that Bari called for firing, I’ll agree that was wrong (although I think that age – if she did it back in college and not after – can, up to a point, be a good excuse). I certainly don’t go for guilt by association with Anthony Weiner, now or then. I did find a more recent example of what looks like a pure cancel culture attempt against one of the professors in question: > **[New York Jewish Week - Jewish Telegraphic Agency](https://www.jta.org/newyork)** > > Est. reading time: 1 minute Even though I consider myself a Zionist, I also consider the effort to get the Trump administration to defund Columbia, because of a professor exercising academic freedom, to be completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/195 "2020-07-18T05:02:12Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > So, in other words, someone else demanded the terminations, not her. Is that it? No, it is not it, AFAICT. Weiss was certainly not the only person involved in this “cancel-culture” campaign, but she was indeed [very much involved in it](https://theintercept.com/2017/08/31/nyts-newest-op-ed-hire-bari-weiss-embodies-its-worst-failings-and-its-lack-of-viewpoint-diversity/): > [@](#): > > [Weiss] explained that she “got involved in journalism through activism” — specifically, activism against Arab and Muslim professors at Columbia whom she accused of bullying Jewish and Israeli students. That was as part of an incredibly ugly campaign launched by the film “Columbia Unbecoming” to depict those Arab professors — members of one of America’s most marginalized groups — as oppressors of Jewish students. > > One of the Arab professors targeted by that campaign, Joseph Massad, described it as “the latest salvo in a campaign of intimidation of Jewish and non-Jewish professors who criticize Israel.” The New York Civil Liberties Union [condemned](https://www.nyclu.org/en/press-releases/nyclu-defends-academic-freedom-columbia-university) the campaign and that film — which Weiss credits as having catalyzed her interest in journalism — as a witch hunt designed to punish Israel critics: “The attack on Professor Massad and other in the [Middle East Studies] Department is really about their scholarship and political expression.” > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Now, it there is evidence that Bari called for firing, I’ll agree that was wrong (although I think that age – if she did it back in college and not after – can, up to a point, be a good excuse). You can’t really invoke “youthful folly” as an excuse for your repudiated actions if you’ve never actually repudiated them, which AFAICT Weiss has not. On the contrary, according to [this article](https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-falsely-denies-her-years-of-attacks-on-the-academic-freedom-of-arab-scholars-who-criticize-israel/): > [@](#): > > In the course of the controversy, Weiss […] finally addressed her own history of trying to ruin the careers of Arab and Muslim scholars for the crime of criticizing Israel. Unfortunately, she did so by falsely denying what she actually did, making demonstrably untrue claims about the controversies in which she was involved, and, worst of all, outright ignoring the most egregious example of her viewpoint-suppression campaigns […] > > The campaign was designed to ruin the careers of Arab professors by equating their criticisms of Israel with racism, anti-Semitism, and bullying, and its central demand was that those professors (some of whom lacked tenure) be disciplined for their transgressions. […] > > The article Greenwell references quotes Weiss as accusing multiple Arab professors critical of Israel of being racists: “We put the mentions of the publications in the film to expose the racism of these professors,” Weiss said. _This_ is the person now using the New York Times op-ed page to complain that academics and commentators with unpopular views are the targets of unfair character assassination. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785/196 "2020-07-18T12:01:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The campaign was designed to ruin the careers of Arab professors by equating their criticisms of Israel with racism, anti-Semitism, and bullying, and its central demand was that those professors (some of whom lacked tenure) be disciplined for their transgressions. […] > > The article Greenwell references quotes Weiss as accusing multiple Arab professors critical of Israel of being racists: Looks like they, or at least one of them, were calling Zionists racists, and some of the Zionists were calling them racist back. I have no plan to run down when that common insult is and is not fairly issued. I think is is overused and hardly likely to gain understanding. The one area where I see borderline cancel culture, coming from Bari, is in opposing tenure. It’s not as egregious as shouting someone down, or saying that a controversial speaker can’t even come on campus, or can’t even write a rare op-ed in your newspaper. Looking.at my next link, it does seem that Joseph Massad has more comfort with hurling insults – relating to his area of academic expertise – than makes sense if you are going to spend your lifetime teaching students coming in with a wide range of views on a controversial subject: > **[Joseph Massad - Wikiquote](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Massad)** Consider: “All those in the Arab world who deny the Jewish holocaust are in my opinion Zionists.” I can understand why this would make Zionist listeners angry, because I myself feel insulted reading this. He still should be heard. Now, I don’t know much about holocaust deniers in the Arab world, or for that matter Zionists in the Arab world. But I’m sure they are not “all” of anything, and that lumping them in clever insulting categories does nothing to enhance understanding. In judging whether Bari was trying to cancel Massad, one thing I would like to know is whether faculty at Columbia are usually granted tenure. If the answer is yes, trying to stop it is cancel culture and the wrong approach. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/making-society-less-of-a-viewpoint-minefield/914785.md?page=9)