# Malcolm X on white liberals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997 "2020-06-03T18:39:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/61 "2020-06-06T02:19:48Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Worst thing about those white liberal churches? They’re full of atheists. > > CMC fnord! Triple Goddess bless em!! ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/62 "2020-06-06T02:40:34Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Understanding the voting interests of black folks in America is incredibly easy: > > - Group R consists of ALL of the racists in America with some other less prominent folks thrown in. Not so coincidentally, group R has no problem allowing their racist contingent to help set the policies their group will pursue. > - Group D at least attempts to give lip service to the various causes that are important to black folks even if they put little energy and effort into effecting actual change. > > The question shouldn’t be why do 90+% of black folks vote democrat, it should be what the hell is wrong with the other 10%?!? > > That being said, I actually agree with Urbanredneck in that white liberals are often extremely hypocritical when you compare what they claim to believe vs the way they actually live. But I say it’s better to team up with the hypocrites than to team up with the racists. I never trouble myself with what 10% of outlier voters believe, on anything. Who the fuck knows and it’s not worth courting them. My point is it isn’t worthwhile wringing our hands over why ALL African Americans don’t vote Democrat. Malcolm was a focused and driven man and lived in a different time, not too different, but significant change has happened. He would have laughed in your face if you told him a black man became president twice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/63 "2020-06-06T02:56:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Sure liberals were against segregation. It meant blacks running their own schools and thinking for themselves. Honestly, that is about the most disgusting rationalization of segregation I’ve ever seen offered in the 21st century. _“See, segregation was fine because it gave blacks more autonomy!”_ This is the first time on these boards I’ve really felt the lack of a barfy smiley. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/64 "2020-06-06T10:11:23Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, John Brown, who died trying to lead a slave rebellion, was NOT liberal about anything. Lincoln and the republicans ended slavery. John Brown was about as radically liberal and progressive as they get. Back then, the Republicans like Lincoln were liberal, especially on slavery - conservatives (Democrats) wanted to conserve slavery, progressives wanted to progress past it. Just like how today, conservatives think everything is fine when it comes to racism, and so they want to conserve the status quo of how government responds when it comes to race, while liberals and progressives want progress. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/65 "2020-06-06T10:12:55Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > If we are going back in history and using broad brush strokes, ‘liberals’ kept the US military segregated during both World Wars and interned thousands of Japanese Americans. Wasnt that Lincoln guy a Rep too? You mean Democrats, not liberals. The Democrats used to be the conservative party of white supremacism, and most black people were Republican. That switched in the mid 20th, due to Civil Rights. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/66 "2020-06-06T10:18:30Z")
Urbanredneck, it’s interesting how you totally ignored the data suggesting that significantly more Republicans are racist than Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/67 "2020-06-06T12:58:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Urbanredneck, it’s interesting how you totally ignored the data suggesting that significantly more Republicans are racist than Democrats. Thats because while I read the quotes, I cannot read the underlying study. Thing is with studies if one cannot look at the actual questions and how they were asked, you dont really know. I also dont know how they selected the people they asked questions of. So sorry, there is no way for me to analyze the study. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/68 "2020-06-06T13:07:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Urbanredneck, it’s interesting how you totally ignored the data suggesting that significantly more Republicans are racist than Democrats. Thats because while I read the quotes, 1. I cannot read the underlying study so I dont know how the questions were asked. 2. I’m not sure one can just flat out say “You answered this way so, your a racist”. For example if a person said they were against inter-racial marriage they are therefore, a racist. Well no its not that simple. 3. I dont know where or how they chose the people who answered the questions (on the phone, thru the mail, in person) many things can effect how people answer. So while yes, I read the “data”, I cannot respond. However I can look at the world around me and I see people like Joe Biden say someone isnt really black if they dont vote democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/69 "2020-06-06T15:03:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These statistics have been misused for years and years to denigrate black people. > > [It’s a canard.](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/) > > On a per capita basis, about half as many unmarried black women now give birth compared to 50 years ago. And it’s been going down steadily for many years, aside from a few blips. To repeat, out-of-wedlock births among black women has been going down for decades. In fact, it’s at the lowest point in the history of the statistic (at least at the time of this article, 2013). > > If “unwed black mothers” is the problem, then black people have been steadily correcting it for decades. And yet society still treats them like crap. Which makes me suspect that it’s not unwed black mothers that are the problem, but how black people are treated by society. About every site I read on google tells another story. The out of wedlock birthrate for African Americans is about 70 percent and has been going up the last few decades. Out of wedlock birthdates have also been going up across the board. I see the author of your Atlantic article and I hope you realize that guy is an activist. [Figure 7](https://ifstudies.org/blog/trends-in-unmarried-childbearing-point-to-a-coming-apart) [Out of wedlock birth rates have gone up between 1990 and 201](https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels) [72 percent out of wedlock birth rate for African Americans](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/) I also take issue with these facts are used to “denigrate” black people in general. It’s been know for quite some time that children in two parent households have better outcomes. When looking at disparities in incomes, education, etc. it would follow logically that out of wedlock birthdates may be a factor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/70 "2020-06-06T15:40:39Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Thats because while I read the quotes, > > 1. I cannot read the underlying study so I dont know how the questions were asked. > > 2. I’m not sure one can just flat out say “You answered this way so, your a racist”. For example if a person said they were against inter-racial marriage they are therefore, a racist. Well no its not that simple. > > 3. I dont know where or how they chose the people who answered the questions (on the phone, thru the mail, in person) many things can effect how people answer. > > So while yes, I read the “data”, I cannot respond. However I can look at the world around me and I see people like Joe Biden say someone isnt really black if they dont vote democrat. You focus on the one silly thing that Biden said (and apologized for!), and ignore that Trump spent years spreading an evidence free racist conspiracy theory, without ever apologizing, praised white supremacists without apologizing, slandered Mexicans (and a judge for having Mexican ancestry) without apologizing, and much more. It’s obvious you’re not interested in any information that challenges your present beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/71 "2020-06-06T16:45:38Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I’m of the opinion that he was a conservative person by nature. Being black in the 60s meant he couldn’t behave the way a typical conservative member of the majority gets to behave. Had he been born white and a few decades later, he would probably have turned out like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. This is unfair. He was passionate in his response to being black in america. There is no evidence of anything else, other than that he might have strongly felt views on justice. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/72 "2020-06-06T16:52:34Z")
Dupe ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/73 "2020-06-06T17:02:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These statistics have been misused for years and years to denigrate black people. > > [It’s a canard.](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/) > > On a per capita basis, about half as many unmarried black women now give birth compared to 50 years ago. And it’s been going down steadily for many years, aside from a few blips. To repeat, out-of-wedlock births among black women has been going down for decades. In fact, it’s at the lowest point in the history of the statistic (at least at the time of this article, 2013). > > If “unwed black mothers” is the problem, then black people have been steadily correcting it for decades. And yet society still treats them like crap. Which makes me suspect that it’s not unwed black mothers that are the problem, but how black people are treated by society. According to your link, single motherhood births to black mothers peaked in 1990-1992. Incarceration [numbers](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/05/06/black-imprisonment-rate-in-the-u-s-has-fallen-by-a-third-since-2006/)for black amercians peaked 16 years later. Since then the number of incarcerated black americans have gone down by 120,000 and the incarceration rate has gone down by 34%. If incarceration rates are a proxy for how well races are treated, black people have been treated better since number of single mothers went down. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/74 "2020-06-06T19:09:52Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > About every site I read on google tells another story. The out of wedlock birthrate for African Americans is about 70 percent and has been going up the last few decades. That’s not a “birthrate” – that’s what percentage of babies born are born to unwed mothers. Birthrate is how many babies are born total – and this is going down, steadily, and has been for decades. What’s happening (and what my link makes clear, if you read the whole thing) is that births to unwed black women are going down steadily. If someone is pointing to unwed mothers as the cause of problems in the black community, then this should be celebrated! It’s been going down for decades, and pretty steadily. What’s also happening is that births to married black women are going down also, perhaps even faster. So there are fewer black babies being born total – to married or unmarried black mothers. So the percentage of those babies may still lean towards unwed mothers. But that’s an entirely different problem – not enough babies for married women – than too many babies for unwed mothers. Single black women are having the fewest babies they’ve ever had (at least as long as these statistics have been recorded). So it’s ludicrous and even offensive to put blame on these women (who really have it tough enough as it is). If this isn’t clear to you, read the article I linked. It makes it very clear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/75 "2020-06-06T19:11:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > According to your link, single motherhood births to black mothers peaked in 1990-1992. Incarceration [numbers](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/05/06/black-imprisonment-rate-in-the-u-s-has-fallen-by-a-third-since-2006/)for black amercians peaked 16 years later. Since then the number of incarcerated black americans have gone down by 120,000 and the incarceration rate has gone down by 34%. > > If incarceration rates are a proxy for how well races are treated, black people have been treated better since number of single mothers went down. If you’re positing that systemic racism has been significant in mistreating black people all the way up to the 90s and possibly beyond (even if things may have improved somewhat), then I’ll agree with you, even if we got here via different routes. If you’re not positing this, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/76 "2020-06-06T19:25:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > My point is that I find conservatives are less racist than liberals. I know we are on a message board but how you can say that with a straight face amazes me. > [@](#): > > I agree and hate that our churches are so divided. > > In defense, I find the more liberal the church, the whiter it is. Churches are divided because they are very much embedded in their community. Almost no one drives long distances to be a part of a different church. Most churches pull from the local community and communities in the US are very much drawn along racial lines. This goes way back to the 50s/60s. Mayor Daley in Chicago route an expressway to help divide the city. But it still happens today. > [@](#): > > Whereas I’ve seen conservative churches very mixed white, black, hispanic (translators available), asians, and even a few bikers. suits, and hipsters in green hair. You dont see that in liberal churches. I live in a liberal part of Chicago. I would be more than happy to take you to many churches that are liberal and have an amazing diverse congregation. A congregation you might be surprised at. People you might consider heathens and apostates and atheists. Lots and lots of white liberals of all stripes go to church. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/77 "2020-06-07T09:34:03Z")
I would be curious to see how Malcolm X’s beliefs would have changed if he had not been killed at age 39. I dont know alot about him but I understand he had changed some of his views. For example, that white people can help blacks and that white people could also be Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/78 "2020-06-08T17:31:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you’re positing that systemic racism has been significant in mistreating black people all the way up to the 90s and possibly beyond (even if things may have improved somewhat), then I’ll agree with you, even if we got here via different routes. If you’re not positing this, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. What your first link said was that it was a myth that the reason black have different outcomes is because of single parenthood. He shows that although the percentage of out of wedlock births have been climbing because of the overall birth rate declining, the actual number of black kids born out of wedlock has been going down. What I showed is that 16 years after the the out of wedlock births began to go down the incarceration numbers started to go down as well. This is consistent with the idea that of of wedlock births is a significant factor in the disparate incarceration rates. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/79 "2020-06-08T17:35:37Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Are you trying to assert that republicans aren’t the party of white racists or are you just taking exception to me using the word “all” in a weak ass attempt to score a point? > > If it’s the first then I would LOVE for you to expound on that. If it’s the later then you’re gonna have to miss me with that weak shit. Yes, I am painting with a wide brush and I don’t care how you feel about that. Others might be willing to entertain the pedantry and debate shit that’s obvious but I have lost all patience with people who continually get stuck on unimportant details that are irrelevant to the larger point. > > And just so I am clear, everything in your response is irrelevant to the larger point. It speaks well of you that you are so willing to abandon bad arguments when shown better evidence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997/80 "2020-06-08T18:50:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What your first link said was that it was a myth that the reason black have different outcomes is because of single parenthood. He shows that although the percentage of out of wedlock births have been climbing because of the overall birth rate declining, the actual number of black kids born out of wedlock has been going down. > > What I showed is that 16 years after the the out of wedlock births began to go down the incarceration numbers started to go down as well. This is consistent with the idea that of of wedlock births is a significant factor in the disparate incarceration rates. At most that shows a possibility of correlation. Nothing about causation. If something (like say the presence of leaded gasoline) was a causative factor for both, that would also be consistent with this data. In any case, I’m glad we agree that, whether it’s a cause or symptom of various problems, black people have been doing absolutely fantastically when it comes to reducing out-of-wedlock births over the last few decades. For those who insist that society bears no responsibility for the statistically poorer circumstances of so many black people, at what point in American history do you believe this started to be the case? Presumably you would agree that slavery was not the fault of black Americans; Jim Crow and segregation weren’t the fault of black Americans; the lack of voting and civil rights were not he fault of black Americans… so when, exactly, do you think all this went away altogether? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/malcolm-x-on-white-liberals/854997.md?page=5)