# Male Centrism at the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 5, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437 "2018-06-05T00:04:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/761 "2018-06-08T20:29:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And let me repeat that _I am on your side in this issue_. Which is really bad news for that side. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/762 "2018-06-08T20:29:48Z")
Thanks for Bigtsplaining. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/763 "2018-06-08T20:36:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which is really bad news for that side. > > Regards, > Shodan That made me LOL. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/764 "2018-06-08T20:43:05Z")
Fucking hell, **BigT** , no one is misunderstanding your suggestion. People are just telling you it’s a stupid suggestion. It’s not the _proportion_ of male-centered commentary, it’s the _volume_. And your suggestion does fuck-all to address it, with the added benefit of putting it all on the women so you can sit there and revel in another instance where mighty BigT saved the day for the poor undertrodden, without actually doing shit. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/765 "2018-06-08T22:39:10Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, women are socially programmed\* to just back out. But that’s the patriarchy talking. (Yes, the patriarchy can also take the form of men being violent and intimidating women.) One of the biggest things in feminism was to tell women that they can be strong enough to stand up and fight. Yes, you may not be able to win a physical altercation, but you can very well win an ideological one. This is even more true when you are anonymous online and thus the threat of violence is extremely reduced. > > You lose 100% of the battles you don’t take. And I don’t mean that in a male-centric “winning” aspect. Winning simply means (mostly) achieving your goals, and losing simply means (mostly) not achieving your goals. It’s simply another way of saying “if you don’t try, you will fail 100% of the time.” > > That said, you guys are completely misunderstanding the suggestion (from me, at least, and I believe from others), because you are assuming our suggestion is about attacking people. When I say you should make more threads about men, it’s because that is a solution to the stated problem of there being too many threads about women. It has nothing at all to do with attacking people. > > The stated issue was not “these threads are wrong because they objectify women.” It was “the proportion of these threads shows a male-centered bias.” And thus a valid solution is to make more male threads, and change that proportion. > > I actually would argue that most of these threads aren’t started in a sexually objectifying way. There are some people who respond in those ways, but that’s not what they are about. It’s about which character you like the most. Yes, attraction can play a part in that, but they are not being reduced to mere objects. I picked Mary Anne over Ginger because Ginger is a pompous jerk, for instance. > > Yes, some people in those threads do respond in objectifying ways. What I’m not sure is whether calling them out will be productive. Sure, if they did it accidentally, it can help. But the actual sexists will likely double down. Unless we can get the mods to enforce that as “being a jerk,” I don’t see that as being fixed. > > And let me repeat that _I am on your side in this issue_. Yes, there was a previous issue where I wasn’t, but that was resolved to my satisfaction. As far as the Dope being unwelcoming to women, I am all for trying to change that. > > But I also am fully aware that fan forums constantly include women judging male characters in the same way that men are judging women. I’m also very much into sex-positive feminism. \*\*Hell, I’ve fought my own brain so that I am (mostly) no longer squicked out by women talking about men as attractive, because I knew that I was being biased. \*\* > > That is why I suggest what I suggest. Not because I want to get back at the people who objectify women. I may have been socially programmed to think that way, but I’m also aware that such would only fail. > > \*Not a sexist thing. Men are socially programmed, too. I would hope that was obvious (especially given my final sentence) but you never know in these types of threads. Bolding mine: It squicked you (or continues to squick you out but to a lesser degree) that women talk about men as attractive? Just …being attractive, or like, more explicit stuff? Men, is this common? I say " That guy is attractive" and it squicks you out? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/766 "2018-06-08T22:43:38Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Bolding mine: > > It squicked you (or continues to squick you out but to a lesser degree) that women talk about men as attractive? Just …being attractive, or like, more explicit stuff? > Men, is this common? I say " That guy is attractive" and it squicks you out? Not me. I’m mildly homophobic (cultural influence; look at my location), but not so much so that the mere idea that people could consider males attractive repels me. I won’t feel attracted to the allegedly attractive males myself (because I’m straight), but the idea that they are doesn’t bother me. Why would it? His comment that it bothered him struck me as odd too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/767 "2018-06-08T23:45:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This is even more true when you are anonymous online and thus the threat of violence is extremely reduced. Right. Anita Sarkeesian won Gamergate. Oh, wait… > [@](#): > > That said, you guys are completely misunderstanding the suggestion (from me, at least, and I believe from others), because you are assuming our suggestion is about attacking people. When I say you should make more threads about men, it’s because that is a solution to the stated problem of there being too many threads about women. It has nothing at all to do with attacking people. 1. It is a solution. It is not the ONLY solution or even, among the women posting, the favored solution. 2. The problem is NOT “too many threads about women” but rather “too many threads discussing women in a manner many women find objectionable” 3. Simply making threads comparable to the threads mentioned but gender-flipped is NOT the solution many women posting here are looking for. Frankly, I find such threads uninteresting _regardless_ of the gender(s) of the people being compared. See point #1. > [@](#): > > The stated issue was not “these threads are wrong because they objectify women.” It was “the proportion of these threads shows a male-centered bias.” And thus a valid solution is to make more male threads, and change that proportion. Please review the above three points again. > [@](#): > > I actually would argue that most of these threads aren’t started in a sexually objectifying way. I, for one, disagree with that statement. > [@](#): > > There are some people who respond in those ways, but that’s not what they are about. It’s about which character you like the most. For some of the contributors yes, that is very clearly what they are about. If you consider other factors like personality and conduct that’s great - but clearly you are not all men and you do not represent the “hurr-hurr-TITTIES!!!” crowd. > [@](#): > > Yes, some people in those threads do respond in objectifying ways. What I’m not sure is whether calling them out will be productive. Sure, if they did it accidentally, it can help. But the actual sexists will likely double down. Then other men need to double down on them - what was it you said about needing to keep trying and about how if you don’t try you will fail 100% of the time? Why does that not apply to telling objectifying jerks that they’re being objectifying jerks? > [@](#): > > And let me repeat that _I am on your side in this issue_. I, for one, am not convinced of that. > [@](#): > > But I also am fully aware that fan forums constantly include women judging male characters in the same way that men are judging women. And that is relevant… how? If it’s just as objectionable to treat men in that manner how does “but-but these women over here do it, too!” in any way justify what the men are doing. Again, that is a sub-set of women, and some other women find objectifying men in that manner distasteful, and some men do not like being discussed in that manner. Creating MORE such threads and discussions is not going to fix the problem. > [@](#): > > I’m also very much into sex-positive feminism. “Sex-positive” does not mean _everything_ has to be about sex. It doesn’t require other people to be treated as objects rather than people. > [@](#): > > Hell, I’ve fought my own brain so that I am (mostly) no longer squicked out by women talking about men as attractive, because I knew that I was being biased. Good on you for that. Now, consider that how you felt - “squicked out” by women talking about men as attractive - is EXACTLY how many women feel about the “Woman A vs Woman B” threads, or threads about what happens when a HAWT WOMMAN is hired at the workplace, or a thread asking if women brag about their genitals, or if they can use their vagina to smoke, and so forth. _They are squicked out._ Do you think that a thread about asking if men can use their penis to smoke is going to be any _less_ “squicky”? Just gender-flipping that one is not going to fix the problem. NOW do you have some understanding of why some (some, not all) women are objecting to certain threads around here? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/768 "2018-06-09T00:06:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Not me. I’m mildly homophobic (cultural influence; look at my location) Potatoes make you afraid of the gays? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/769 "2018-06-09T00:53:26Z")
My rednecked ( but lovable) Mr.Wrekker had to go to a week long training workshop on sexual harassment and abuse in his workplace. He then had to teach this course at the plant he worked at. I never saw a man squirm so much with the concept of teaching it to a co-ed group. He finally got proficient and became the person who went to many plants to teach this course. I am telling this because, I want any man on this board who thinks they cannot changed and understand this dynamic, if he can change anyone can. He was raised by the most bigoted and sexist man, ever. Mr.Wrekker was/is the most rednecked and manly man I have ever met. You would never believe him to be able to understand this issue by looking at him. There is hope. It doesn’t make you less of a man. And you can teach your sons this. Now if I could just get him to pick up his socks.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/770 "2018-06-09T01:03:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Potatoes make you afraid of the gays? If he’s in the northern half, we’re not talking about potatoes-we’re talking about some areas where the wrong shade of tan can put you in a world of hurt, women are for getting pregnant in high school, and men are for putting them in that condition and openly bragging about it, when they aren’t bragging about beating their kids so that they can become Men too. If there was a gay person in all the years I was in school there I never even had a suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/771 "2018-06-09T01:07:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he’s in the northern half, we’re not talking about potatoes-we’re talking about some areas where the wrong shade of tan can put you in a world of hurt, women are for getting pregnant in high school, and men are for putting them in that condition and openly bragging about it, when they aren’t bragging about beating their kids so that they can become Men too. If there was a gay person in all the years I was in school there I never even had a suspicion. I can understand that. But “I really couldn’t say anything supportive about gay people for fear of my life” or whatever is different than “Homophobia because of my location” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/772 "2018-06-09T01:10:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I can understand that. But “I really couldn’t say anything supportive about gay people for fear of my life” or whatever is different than “Homophobia because of my location” I think he was just saying that because of his upbringing he may have a little bit more to overcome than some others. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is trying, until shown otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/773 "2018-06-09T01:12:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think he was just saying that because of his upbringing he may have a little bit more to overcome than some others. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is trying, until shown otherwise. Fair enough. I can go with that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/774 "2018-06-09T02:31:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Fair enough. I can go with that. It’s admirable that he was able to step back and see what was up, then grow from there. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/775 "2018-06-09T02:48:07Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > It squicked you (or continues to squick you out but to a lesser degree) that women talk about men as attractive? Just …being attractive, or like, more explicit stuff? > Men, is this common? I say " That guy is attractive" and it squicks you out? God, no. BgT got big problems, or at leat he did. I think his self administered penis desensitization therapy has worked wonders. Some guys might get jealous or simply annoyed if it goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/776 "2018-06-09T03:30:45Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > My rednecked ( but lovable) Mr.Wrekker had to go to a week long training workshop on sexual harassment and abuse in his workplace. He then had to teach this course at the plant he worked at. I never saw a man squirm so much with the concept of teaching it to a co-ed group. He finally got proficient and became the person who went to many plants to teach this course. > I am telling this because, I want any man on this board who thinks they cannot changed and understand this dynamic, if he can change anyone can. He was raised by the most bigoted and sexist man, ever. Mr.Wrekker was/is **the most rednecked and manly man I have ever met**. **You would never believe him to be able to understand this issue by looking at him.** There is hope. It doesn’t make you less of a man. And you can teach your sons this. > Now if I could just get him to pick up his socks.😉 I have a couple of problems with this view of men, but I don’t want to jump on what may only be an unintentional turn of phrase. My problems stem from judging a man based on how he looks – that a (presumably) big burly blue-collar guy\* is more manly than a quiet non-burly guy who wears a tie and works at a desk, and that a big burly blue-collar guy should not be expected to have any sensitivity about sexual harassment because of the way he looks. My other problem is to ask what the hell “manly” means anyway? If you didn’t really mean it (referencing your later remark that “it doesn’t make you less of a man”) then why did you choose that word? I am truly not attempting any tu quoque “you do it too” zinger here. I could say that it goes both ways, but what I really want to say is that it goes all ways, and we all have learning to do when it comes to choosing neutral words whenever we can. \*I know you didn’t use the words “big burly blue-collar guy” but that is the image I got from your post. Feel free to substitute a more accurate description, it doesn’t change my point. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/777 "2018-06-09T03:39:49Z")
Are we at a point where one cannot affectionately describe their own spouse in terms that someone, anyone is going to find offensive? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/778 "2018-06-09T03:44:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Are we at a point where one cannot affectionately describe their own spouse in terms that someone, anyone is going to find offensive? :dubious: My wife calls me farty mcfartface, I’m ok with it. The cat gives me nothing but scorn however. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/779 "2018-06-09T03:48:08Z")
You should demand that she call you The Grand Gassino. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shagunathor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@Shagunathor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagunathor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437/780 "2018-06-09T03:58:02Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > The cat gives me nothing but scorn however. Tautology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-centrism-at-the-dope/815437.md?page=40)