# Male sexuality at its most banal and pathetic (twisted marriage contract) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650 "2006-02-22T17:26:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/41 "2006-02-23T15:08:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I was right then and I’m right now. Fuck you. That goes for \*\*Waverly[/b too. It’s not ok to treat women like shit. Treating women like shit is not just another color on the palette of human sexuality, it’s fucking abuse. Try not to be so open minded that your brains fall out. I’ve heard of “poisoning the well”, but this might be the first recorded instance of a “perfuming the cesspool” fallacy. You got called out for offering your inexpert psychological Dio-gnosis, not for your selfless defense of woman’s rights, you dimwitted trog. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/42 "2006-02-23T15:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **Malacandra** said: > It’s cool. I didn’t read it as a veiled slam on all men, although (as you doubtless know) I do think your heart is in the right place. I’d read the thread about this guy in MPSIMS which was more of a hey-look-at-this-crazy-motherfucker kind of a thread, and when I saw the title here I didn’t at first think of that guy. For some reason I thought this was going to be about a group of guys who did something that was rude or demeaning or something. The guy who drew up these so-called rules doesn’t seem to have a sexuality problem so much to me as he does a control problem. He seems like he’s turned on by the things that a lot of guys are, like shaving and oral and anal sex, but where he came unglued was in his weird need to make ‘rules’. I wonder if he makes ‘rules’ for other aspects of life also. There’s no information available on that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this dude had a rainman-like schedule of things to be done… laundry must be done exactly at 11:30 am… kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/43 "2006-02-23T15:48:46Z")
I read the thing. I’m pretty sure Skippy there is a certifiable nut, suitable for snacking or cooking purposes, but it wasn’t the document _per se_ that convinced me of that. It was the incidentals. Like the kiddie porn and the rape allegations along with some other behavior on his part that was definitely unacceptable. I can think of several reasons for a document of its sort that aren’t indicative of mental instability: 1. Because you’re into (or want to experiment with) BDSM. 2. Because you’re exploring what you’d want out of marriage - your ideal expectations. Possibly as a counseling or therapy exercise. 3. As a joke between lovers/spouses. 4. As a work of fiction - a writer’s exercise, if you will. In the first instance, while it ain’t my kink, I can see the utility of having a document spelling out your expectations. From what I know about that area of human sexuality, its devotees are big, big fans of spelling out the parameters and limits beforehand. One would anticipate there is a second, mirror document spelling out the partner’s expectations as well. If, of course, this were a consensual sort of experience. If it is, then they can go on about their business. **DtC** ’s assertions aside, engaging in consensual sexual behavior (even if it’s in the form of a 24/7 lifestyle setting) isn’t degrading to an entire gender. The fact that the behavior isn’t to everyone’s taste doesn’t make it so, either. If it’s not, (as appears to be the case in this instance), then off to prison with him for trying to “enforce” it. In the second instance, having something that outlines what you might want in your own perfect fantasy of life is certainly a valuable counseling tool. Particularly if used to help you and your partner figure out areas of compromise - or if the relationship is even worth saving. I’m not saying his “contract” is a healthy view of marriage, but the _point_ of therapy is to identify and ideally correct unhealthy views, expectations and behavior patterns. In the third and fourth instances, well, just meh. Some of us have already given it to our spouses in humor 😃 In any case, **DtC** can unbunch his panties. While _this_ guy is pretty clearly some sandwiches and a quart of potato salad short of a picnic, the broad generalizations about entire groups of humanity makes me dubious about **DtC** ’s own potato salad status. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/44 "2006-02-23T16:08:37Z")
> [@Phèdre nó Delaunay](#): > > No you’re not right. I’m divorcing this from the specific case because I just don’t have enough information to know what really went on there. Just because you don’t “get” BDSM and slavery doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it’s just another lifestyle that you don’t get. You probably won’t ever get it, but that’s ok, because you don’t have to do it. Don’t go telling people who ARE into it that they are mentally ill, because, you know what? They aren’t, they just have a different kink than you do. I already said I wasn’t talking about BDSM in general, I’m talking about THIS SICK FUCK. From what I’ve been reading, these kinds of contracts typically spell out stipulated parameters and conditions on the part of both partners. This particular contract specifically stipulates that there can _be_ no parameters or limits, that the submissive partner is not allowed to object to anything or show visible discontent and that there are no conditions or responsibilities on the guy whatsoever. The contract shows a complete lack of empathy and a Buffalo Bill style objectification of the victim. I also never said anyone was “mentally ill.” Sociopaths are not mentally ill, they just lack empathy. And there’s a difference between “slavery” as a role playing fantasy and actual slavery as a reality. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/45 "2006-02-23T16:13:12Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > What does this one guy’s weird list of requirements have to do with ‘male sexuality’? > > It’s one guy! Nothing in general. Just that he’s a fucked up example of it. I wonder if he measures her pubic patch with a tape measure every day? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/46 "2006-02-23T16:21:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I was right then and I’m right now. Fuck you. That goes for \*\*Waverly[/b too. It’s not ok to treat women like shit. Treating women like shit is not just another color on the palette of human sexuality, it’s fucking abuse. Try not to be so open minded that your brains fall out. No you weren’t (as a disinterested observer, it struck me that you got your ass handed to you), no you’re not, and you may never be good enough (you’d better try your luck with **Waverly**. I’ve known women who fantasise about being treated _exactly_ like this and displayed no visible signs of mental illness. This particular guy may be a creep, but another couple at another time could have delightedly drawn up just such a contract for their mutual enjoyment. Amazing how fucking tolerant you can be until you bump up against something that happens to squick you out. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/47 "2006-02-23T16:25:59Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No you weren’t (as a disinterested observer, it struck me that you got your ass handed to you), no you’re not… Yes he is. To wit: > [@](#): > > I already said I wasn’t talking about BDSM in general, I’m talking about THIS SICK FUCK. It is demonstrable that this was not a two-way arrangement. His wife said so. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/48 "2006-02-23T16:28:27Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **I already said I wasn’t talking about BDSM in general, I’m talking about THIS SICK FUCK**. From what I’ve been reading, these kinds of contracts typically spell out stipulated parameters and conditions on the part of both partners. This particular contract specifically stipulates that there can _be_ no parameters or limits, that the submissive partner is not allowed to object to anything or show visible discontent and that there are no conditions or responsibilities on the guy whatsoever. The contract shows a complete lack of empathy and a Buffalo Bill style objectification of the victim. > > \*\*I also never said anyone was “mentally ill.” Sociopaths are not mentally ill, they just lack empathy. \*\* > > And there’s a difference between “slavery” as a role playing fantasy and actual slavery as a reality. Cool. However: > [@Dio](#): > > Even if this guy had theoretically found somebody fucked up and damaged enough to want to submit to this kind of sadistic fantasy, doesn’t seem to be sung from the same hymn sheet. Possibly “fucked up and damaged” isn’t the same as “mentally ill” in your dictionary, but the casual reader can be excused for not grasping this straight off; you seemed quite categorical there that any sub/slave who wanted to go along with something like this had to have something wrong with them… a line you’ve unsuccessfully peddled quite recently, **Dio**. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/49 "2006-02-23T16:31:46Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I wonder if he makes ‘rules’ for other aspects of life also. There’s no information available on that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this dude had a rainman-like schedule of things to be done… laundry must be done exactly at 11:30 am… kind of thing. -The laundry must be started at exactly 11:30:00. No exceptions. You will use one third of a cup of liquid FAB detergent, to be poured in a counterclock wise pattern over the clothing as it sits in the washer. The water used for the wash must be EXACTLY 45 degrees F, to be taken with a thermameter that I will provide you… ---
**Author:** ![Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/779978/32.png) [@Amazon\_Floozy\_Goddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amazon_Floozy_Goddess)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/50 "2006-02-23T16:33:35Z")
:eek:. Just :eek:. That guy’s messed up. The only being that could conform to all those rules would be a RealDoll. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/51 "2006-02-23T16:40:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I also never said anyone was “mentally ill.” Sociopaths are not mentally ill, they just lack empathy. You are really, really slipping in your back pedaling skills. You need to look behind you so that you can see where you’ve been. So is psychopath or sociopath? Or are you just dumbing down the definitions for us laymen? Empathy? I believe that sociopathy is an antisocial personality disorder that can best be described as lack of conscience when it comes to fulfilling needs or desires. Oh, and you can’t Dio-gnose it through a blog. I know, psychology is so rigorous nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/52 "2006-02-23T16:41:28Z")
> [@Amazon Floozy Goddess](#): > > :eek:. Just :eek:. > > That guy’s messed up. > > The only being that could conform to all those rules would be a RealDoll. _shrug_ I dunno. The messed-up part of it is where he wanted her to sign up without her consent. The rest of it… well, the opportunity for days off is generous, and some couples might actually prefer that the rules were hard to keep, so that there could be punishment. I believe quite a lot of that sort of thing goes on, though I’m not a practitioner myself. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/53 "2006-02-23T17:11:38Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > You are really, really slipping in your back pedaling skills. You need to look behind you so that you can see where you’ve been. > > So is psychopath or sociopath? Or are you just dumbing down the definitions for us laymen? Empathy? I believe that sociopathy is an antisocial personality disorder that can best be described as lack of conscience when it comes to fulfilling needs or desires. Oh, and you can’t Dio-gnose it through a blog. I know, psychology is so rigorous nowadays. Psychopaths and sociopaths are pretty close to the same thing, retard. The fact that this guy tipped over the line into kidnapping probably puts him in the latter category but his contract shows some of the characteristics of an “Aggressive Sociopath” (see below) and lack of empathy is the defining characteristic for antisocial personality disorders. > [@](#): > > People who cannot contain their urges to harm (or kill) people repeatedly for no apparent reason are assumed to suffer from some mental illness. However, they may be more cruel than crazy, they may be choosing not to control their urges, they know right from wrong, they know exactly what they’re doing, and they are definitely NOT insane, at least according to the consensus of most scholars (Samenow 2004). In such cases, they usually fall into one of three types that are typically considered aggravating circumstances in addition to their legal guilt – antisocial personality disorder (APD), sociopath, or psychopath – none of which are the same as insanity or psychosis. > > \ > > _List of Common Sociopathic Traits_ > > Egocentricity; Callousness; Impulsivity; Conscience defect; Exaggerated sexuality; Excessive boasting; Risk taking; Inability to resist temptation; Antagonistic, deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex; Lack of interest in bonding with a mate > > \ > > AGGRESSIVE SOCIOPATHS derive strong, yet nonperverse gratification from harming others. They like to hurt, frighten, tyrannize, bully, and manipulate. They do it for a sense of power and control, and will often only drop subtle hints about what they are up to. They polish their aggressive, domineering manner in such a way to disguise any intimidation others might feel. They seek out positions of power, such as parent, teacher, bureaucrat, supervisor, or police officer. Their style is one of passive aggression as they systematically go about sabotaging the ideas of others to get their ideas in place. In their spare time, they like to hunt or occasionally do sadistic things like find stray dogs and cut them up. They are usually effective at getting their way, and are especially vindictive if resisted or crossed. They don’t follow the social norm of reciprocity like others do. > > [http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm](http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm) Whether he is technically a sociopath or a psychopath he is still not mentally ill and the aggressive desire to bully and control the opposite sex fits the symptomology of a sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/54 "2006-02-23T17:21:07Z")
I thought a sociopath by definition was mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/55 "2006-02-23T17:22:08Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Cool. However: > > doesn’t seem to be sung from the same hymn sheet. Possibly “fucked up and damaged” isn’t the same as “mentally ill” in your dictionary, but the casual reader can be excused for not grasping this straight off; you seemed quite categorical there that any sub/slave who wanted to go along with something like this had to have something wrong with them… a line you’ve unsuccessfully peddled quite recently, **Dio**. People can be emotionally fucked up without being mentally ill. > [@](#): > > There are different theories related to sexual masochism, many stemming from the psychoanalytic camp. They suggest that childhood trauma (e.g., sexual abuse) or significant childhood experiences can manifest itself in exhibitionistic behavior. > > Nathan, Gorman and Salkind (1999) provide the following survey of current theories regarding the etiology of paraphilias. Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors learns to imitate and is later reinforced for the behavior. Compensation models suggest that these individuals are deprived of normal social sexual contacts and thus seek gratification through less socially acceptable means. Physiological models focus on the relationship between hormones, behavior and the central nervous system with a particular interest in the role of aggression and male sexual hormones. > [http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/masochism.html#Causes](http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/masochism.html#Causes) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/56 "2006-02-23T17:26:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I thought a sociopath by definition was mentally ill. Not in the sense that they have any distorted perception of reality or inability to tell right from wrong. They know exactly what they’re doing, they just don’t feel bad about it. It also doesn’t match any legal definition of “insanity.” All serial killers are sociopaths/psychopaths but they don’t fit the required definition of “insanity” to be able to use it as a defense. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/57 "2006-02-23T17:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > AGGRESSIVE SOCIOPATHS derive strong, yet nonperverse gratification from harming others. They like to hurt, frighten, tyrannize, bully, and manipulate. They do it for a sense of power and control, and will often only drop subtle hints about what they are up to. They polish their aggressive, domineering manner in such a way to disguise any intimidation others might feel. They seek out positions of power, such as parent, teacher, bureaucrat, supervisor, or police officer. Their style is one of passive aggression as they systematically go about sabotaging the ideas of others to get their ideas in place. In their spare time, they like to hunt or occasionally do sadistic things like find stray dogs and cut them up. They are usually effective at getting their way, and are especially vindictive if resisted or crossed. They don’t follow the social norm of reciprocity like others do. Jeebus, is this a spot-on description of Dick Cheney or what? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/58 "2006-02-23T17:58:25Z")
Which begs the question: does Lynne have an embedded microchip or is this really what Matlin is for? (DICK would never be so trusting as to put anything on paper…) ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/59 "2006-02-23T18:15:23Z")
You are totally wonkers, Dio. I don’t know where to begin. - Psychopaths and sociopaths may be similar to the layperson, but don’t forget that you are an expert. - How can on online mental health professional like you use ‘retard’ as an insult? Tsk tsk. - You insist empathy is central to the definition, and then post a lengthy article that _doesn’t use empathy in its definition_. I know, you’ll come back and use some tortured logic and maintain it is implied within the language. Could you spare yourself from the embarrassment and skip that part? - You set up a straw man, then submit it to some serious bondage before knocking it down. I have not said once that sociopathy = mental illness. I have said that you are not qualified to Dio-gnose either. I’m sure there is more, but I’d just like to close by mentioning that I picture you as that _other_ lantern carrying icon: the lawn gnome. Not an ordinary lawn gnowm, but one with a crazed look in his eyes, and a thick froth of spittle trailing onto his beard. It’s gonna be hard to ever take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650/60 "2006-02-23T20:19:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not in the sense that they have any distorted perception of reality or inability to tell right from wrong. They know exactly what they’re doing, they just don’t feel bad about it. It also doesn’t match any legal definition of “insanity.” All serial killers are sociopaths/psychopaths but they don’t fit the required definition of “insanity” to be able to use it as a defense. But obviously, there’s something wrong with their brains, right? I have an anxiety disorder, and I consider that a mental illness. Yet I’m as sane as the next person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/male-sexuality-at-its-most-banal-and-pathetic-twisted-marriage-contract/345650.md?page=4)