Mall-Wart is Satan Spawn-why continue to support this evil enterprise?

The BBQ Pit
21

OK, I have to disagree. Do you honestly think there are not people to whom a quarter really makes a difference? Because if you’re saving a quarter on *all * your purchases each time, well that can add up.

And as for buying my furniture at Target instead of Wally World, how is that any better? I’m still not buying from “local” type stores or mom & pop type places.

I don’t really intend to change my shopping habits. I don’t believe in retail boycotting, because as Random Letters points out, it hurts the people who work there before it ever hurts the company, unfortunately.

22

Target doesn’t run communities into the ground the way Walmart does. Also Target doesn’t ban unions even if not every store is unionized, and I’m a big union person. They’re not an ideal business, and I’d rather shop independent if I can, but I think they’re the least “evil” of the big box stores.

I don’t really care about hurting workers at Walmart because of my “boycott.” Most of them can find other disposable employment if the company feels the need to downsize. I’m much more concerned about the independent business owners who live and die by their businesses.

23

There’s a Wal-Mart moving into the little town on the other side of the river. (Someone explain to me how there’s a difference between the little town on the north side of the river and the little town on the south side of the river, please.) Anyway, there’s a whole lot of worry about what it’ll do to the small businessman. Now, let’s think about it. Some of the little businesses are so specialized I’m surprised they actually survive. A kite shop? A corner store with a sign that reads “Guns Ammo Cutlery”? And others, being pretty specialized, can probably take Wal-Mart moving in. I mean, Wal-Mart isn’t where you go to get formalware fitted, or to get a tan, or for books that aren’t the latest bestseller, or to get your laundry done. And the stuff on the other side of the river, on the highway, are all other chains.

I gotta be honest. I don’t do much more than grocery shopping on any given week, and even then it’s mostly for soda and maybe some snacks. And then I’m more likely to walk the three blocks down to the supermarket than I am to drive to the other one a mile and a half away. So why would I go all the way to Wal-Mart for that? Besides, I hate Super Wal-Marts, and especially the grocery section. I must admit that I don’t do much shopping in the downtown area either–the parking is lousy, with one free lot that can be hard to find spots in and otherwise metered parking on the street, and although it’s not much of a walk, it’s still most of a mile, so you figure it’s gonna to take me at least an hour to walk down there, do my shopping, and come back. Sure, I can use the walk, but the problem is that it’s often too unpleasant to do that here in the winter. Plus, I have to fight with other students for parking here at school, which makes me less likely to drive anywhere to begin with. There are literally stretches of time where I don’t move my car for at least a week.

Quite frankly, I generally avoid Wal-Mart. So I would probably generally avoid the one moving in as well, if it wasn’t for the fact that I’m going to be gone by the time it opens.

24

You’re correct about correlation not being equivalent to causation. But there are only two obvious alternatives: (1) having the causation relationship reversed, or (2) having some third factor that causes both.

You consider (1) here:

Except that the Penn State study wasn’t a static look, e.g. correlating the counties’ poverty rate and number of Mall-Warts at a particular time. If it had been, this line of reasoning would have made sense. But according to the press release, they considered change in poverty rates over the decade of the 1990s, correlating that with the number of Wal-Marts added. Plus, they controlled for initial poverty rates and whether a county already had a Wal-Mart. Which is exactly the way you get rid of the statistical noise.

OK, so there’s our third factor: more intense scrutiny by local officials and and more stringent ordinances both cause poverty to decrease faster, and keep out the Wal-Marts.

It’s possible, I suppose, even taking into account the fact that the study’s controlling for initial poverty. But then you have more stringent regulation causing poverty to decrease faster than less stringent regulation.

I’d say it’s more than a data point; AFAIAC, it creates a rebuttable presumption that Wal-Mart has an adverse effect on poverty rates.

25

What makes them so special that they deserve to keep their businesses open even if customers obviously prefer shopping at Wal-Mart? And how is this to be done? Will the local government will give them corporate welfare, decide who can sell undeveloped lots to Wal-Mart, or what? That’s a lot of tyranny just for the sake of economic inefficiency.

26

2 litre bottle of Diet Dr Thunder for .58 cents.

'Nuff said.

27

From the linked article:

That’s a big “if” and the article offers nothing to support it. The literature section of the linked paper suggests otherwise.

Where I grew up in the 70’s - Northern NJ - the coffin lid was nailed shut on a downtown (Dover) when Rockaway Townsquare Mall was built just outside of town. We had to pass through Dover’s decay to get there, and go there we did. Back then malls were the “satan spawn” to suburban downtowns that Wal-Mart is supposed to be to rural mom & pops today. It’s not a new phenomenon and it’s here to stay. Downtowns and mom & pops have to adapt or die.

Last weekend in Walmart I bought just about all the clothes I’ll need for my twin two year old girls for the spring and summer. Tops and shorts are like $3 or so. That’s how much I like to pay for things they’re going to grow out of in pretty short order. I bought a shower curtain and a bathmat (Target was out), some towels, a couple of DVDs my girls would like (no cheaper than anywhere else, unfortunately), some little toy cars I’ve been meaning to get, and last but not least, all the groceries on my list. True one stop shopping. Like a mall with groceries.

I guess in one sense it is like a discount shopping mall for areas that wouldn’t be able to support a real shopping mall. Is it the desire of Wal-Mart’s detractors to deny people that?

There are things I don’t buy at Wal-Mart. Like shoes, music, books, electronics, (well, except for my little RCA home theater setup that I wheel out for ‘movie night’ - $149 at Wal-Mart). For those things I go to the other places that drove mom & pop out of business: Circuit City, Crutchfield’s, Amazon, iTunes, Barnes & Noble, Stride Rite, Foot Locker, Best Buy, Staples.

And driving the extra distance to everybody’s beloved Target, then to a grocery store (because Target’s sucks) isn’t going to save me anything.

If you want to sample the income levels of shoppers at Wal-Mart pick one and cruise the parking lot. My guess is you’ll see a handful of luxury cars & SUVs, a handful of rusted out beaters held together with baling wire and duct tape, and the rest will be your average assortment of minivans, SUVS, sedans that you see anywhere else.

28

Well, its possible that more stringent regulations in an area forced the poorer/less skilled people to leave, decreasing the poverty in one area, but increasing it in another, with Walmart merely going to the areas that were becoming relatively poorer.

And besides, I know that at least in my area, all the other retailers pay about the same/less than the local Walmart to their employees. And the benefits suck at the Mom & Pop type places. Mom & Pop might do well though; I guess their wealth can “trickle down” through the local economy, right? :wink:

29

Well, here’s an example – at least for me. You know those little Budget frozen box meals? Like alfredo or macaroni and cheese? I live alone and I eat at least a couple of those a week when I need a quick meal, or used to eat them for lunch at my job when I worked outside home, 'cause they’re cheap and better for you that McD’s.

Anyway, at the store closest to me, those things are almost $1.75 each.

If I can get a ride and go to the Wal-Mart store to stock up, they’re about 88c each. I’ve compared apples-to-apples a lot of other stuff, and the pattern is similar for most other products. I save even more if I buy store brand, because the expensive store tends to only carry brand name stuff in a lot of items.

There is a store in between that’s pretty close to the Wal-Mart prices, but the aisles are so narrow that even if one person has a cart in there, it’s almost impossible to shop, and no matter what time of day it is, it’s always packed. I’ve never gotten out of there in less than 20 minutes even using the Express lane. I often find they don’t have what I want, anyway, and they close fairly early. The Walmart store, OTOH, is open 24 hours, has the biggest selection of anywhere near me, has huge aisles and everything I want, and I can get literally twice as much food for the same amount of money. Plus I can go there later in the evening, and speed through the self-checkouts, making a big shopping trip take less than half an hour. So that’s why I shop there.

30

Well, I won’t shop at Wal-Mart itself. Every store I’ve been to is crowded, dirty, and disorganized. There is a Super K-Mart just up the street from Wal-Mart, and it has nice wide aisles, excellent prices (as good or better than Wal-Mart), and is open 24 hours.

However, I do grocery shop frequently at Sam’s Club. The selection is a lot better than at Costco, and they take all credit cards. My Costco would only take Amex, which always ticked me off – particularly when I was getting an added cash back bonus on groceries from Discover. Also, it always infuriated me that Costco never labeled any of their aisles with what those aisles contained. So basically you had to wonder up and down every aisle to find what you wanted – and things moved around quite frequently. At least Sam’s shows what is in each aisle and pretty much keeps things in the same place.

31

Hey, nobody’s making you shop at the independent places. It’s just that personally I choose to, and I don’t like having that choice taken away from me whenever a Walmart moves in and drives all the little businesses out. I’m not recommending any kind of legal action to keep indie stores in business; I exercise my choice by not shopping at Walmart, and standing up against the interference of Walmart by signing petitions to keep them out of untainted places legally. We are still allowed to perform grassroots direct action like that in America, aren’t we?

I don’t call keeping independent businesses alive “economic inefficiency,” I call it “shopping at a business with a human face.” I just believe there are more important things than saving a quarter on a box of macaroni. I don’t want to get everything from one giant megastore. Diversity is good! Competition rocks! Shopping at megastores reminds me of what it must have been like in Soviet Russia, everyone lining up at one location to get their necessities, every Walmart so uniform and bland. Maybe you like that kind of system, but I don’t. And if I’m willing to pay more to not have to go through it, what’s it to you?

And Walmart receives millions in corporate welfare every year. I doubt that the little local bookstores and coffee shops receive any.

32

When you have a town of Mom & Pop businesses, you have a lot business owners who are making it, a smaller amount of employees that arn’t doing so great, and a few people that work somewhere else entirely. Overall, there are more people on the “making it” side than the other one. And more people have a chance to make it. The american dream of opening a small business and making a living off it is entirely possible. It’s the real “ownership society” that Bush keeps talking about.

The money also stays in the economy, so the entire town is richer on the whole. When you spend your money at a Mom & Pop, you are making Mom & Pop richer, and they hopefully spend money at your business and everyone wins.

In a WalMart town (and in some places WalMart is the main employer and only real place to buy stuff), you have no business owners, a small handful of store-manager types- often imported from other stores- that are “making it”, and a whole bunch of folks that arn’t making enough money to fulfill their basic needs. There is little chance to move up and little chance to own your own business. And all the profits get sent out of town to WalMart headquarters, where it allows some guy somewhere else to buy a new yacht.

33

I like WalMart because they don’t like unions because I live in a place where unions have too much power, already.

34

That’s a good point - I certainly won’t get that well off from Walmart, and only plan on working there for a couple years. Still, it seems to me that the whole “Mom & Pop” business concept doesn’t work that well; they may say otherwise, but most people want one place where they can stop and buy their standard consumer goods.

I know in my parent’s hometown, several local businessmen fought successfully to keep out Walmart, who wanted to build a store there a couple years ago. They said they wanted to save the downtown district. Then, the local Pamida, which had been there for years, and had a small store one street off of main, closed up, and relocated to a new, larger building on the outskirts of the town (right were Walmart wanted to put a store). 5 years later, people buy most everything from the Pamida or the local grocery store, and half of the towndown stores have closed up. And the wages at the Pamida are slightly worse than what Walmart was planning on paying.

The fact is, when asked to put their dollar were their mouth is, most people prefer the cheap, big box stores (be it a Target, KMart, Pamida, Shopco, and Walmart) to the small places. Walmart has just been the best at being a big box store.

35

Yes, I’ll say it…cite?

36

Exactly. The question is – do people really want to reap what they sow?

Note that your answer may very well be yes. For some, the “bang for the buck” is really important. For some, the ideal of “economic efficiency” may do it. However, for others, the Jimmy Stewart notion of Bedford Falls overrides that. I think that there’s growing evidence that the last is diametrically opposed to the existence of Wal-Mart, although I could be wrong.

Perhaps it’s inevitable. Perhaps it’s actually a good thing. Personally, I don’t think so and I avoid Wal-Mart; but then, I’m not on a crusade against them either and I have a Meijer’s right up the street from me. And I totally understand that it’s cheaper (sometimes, by a lot) than other places.

On preview, to Gangster Octopus, isn’t that what the Penn State study is?

37

Considering all the reasons stated in this thread to hate Wal-Mart, I’m surprised the company’s pushing of this legislation hasn’t been mentioned.

Is it really worth it to increase truckers’ workdays to 16 hours so people can buy more “cheap crap”?

38

I don’t know, NDP. They aren’t actually increasing they time they are -working- to 16 hours, they’re making them take more break time. On a couple of the radio programs I listen to, they interviewed a lot of truckers, and most of them actually seemed to like the idea. The extra two unpaid hours in the middle of the workday means they can take a nap, shower, have a nice meal, do some shopping or whatever.

It depends on how it’s implimented, I suppose. Some truckers said they are paid for up to two hours of unloading time and after that they are unpaid. Some said certain companies make them unload their own freight. The article mentions the companies forcing the truckers to use some of that unpaid break time while they’re unloading. Having been on a lot of long-haul road trips, I can see how having an extra two hours in there somewhere to rest would be appealing.

The truckers that called in seemed to like the new legislation (in theory), maybe the organizations opposing it just see more the potential for abuse that the workers do right now.

39

2 third world sweatshop workers making .58 cents a day.

'Nuff said.

40

In my observation, the poorer you are, the more challenging geographic mobility becomes. It’s more likely that the jobs go, but the people stay.