# Mallard Fillmore on "Forte" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878 "2005-11-13T19:20:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/21 "2005-11-14T14:07:48Z")
The problem with this that: 1.) For historical reasons, “fort” does seem to be the correct pronunciation, but 2.) Mosdt people don’t know that, and pronounce it “for-Tay” and 3.) If you pronounce it “for-Tay”, a lot of people either won’t know what you’re talking about, and will mistake your meaning. Or else they’ll think you’re being oretentious. 4.) In part because “fort” sounds like another word, so it’s not exactly like the “Point-setta/point-set-I-ya” controversy of several years ago. 5.) Most people pronounce it “for-Tay” because the learn it from _other_ people’s use, not because they themselves have heard the correct pronunciation and willfully ignore it, or see it only in print and decide to pronounce it that way. Champions of the “fort” pronunciastion often seem to act as if "fort: pronouncers are being intentionally ignorant, and it annoys them when they’re being corrected for using a pronunciation gthat they hear everyone else using. It makes the “correctors” sound pedantic. It doesn’t bother me in cases where the “popular” usage is so far off the mark (As with “livid” being used as if it meant “red in the face”, when it actually means “purple”), but “for-Tay” seems to make a useful distinction between spellings “fort” and “forte”, so I can live with it. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/22 "2005-11-14T14:26:31Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > (As with “livid” being used as if it meant “red in the face”, when it actually means “purple”), Well, **Cal** , livid seems to pretty much cover the spectrum of colors. My _Collegiate_ says “livid” can mean: Black and blue from bruising. (Usage cite - Abraham Cowley) Ashen, pale. (Usage cite - Walt Whitman) Reddish. (Usage cite - Truman Capote) Enraged. (Usage cite - none) Of course it’s just a cheap little old dictionary. If I weren’t so lazy I would go upstairs to the _International_ where I might find a few more colors/meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/23 "2005-11-14T17:59:14Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The OED is clearly documenting the change from “fort” to “fortay” as a pronunciation, whereas others are trying their damndest to hold back the change. Does popular usage ever change the spelling of a word? Based on what I’ve seen on various forums on the internet, I’m pretty sure that one day I’ll wake up and **wah la** , there will be a new spelling for a word. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/24 "2005-11-14T19:50:28Z")
> [@Dag Otto](#): > > Does popular usage ever change the spelling of a word? Based on what I’ve seen on various forums on the internet, I’m pretty sure that one day I’ll wake up and **wah la** , there will be a new spelling for a word. Much less often, since spellings are learned in school for the most part, while pronunciations are learned from more natural language acquisition processes. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/25 "2005-11-14T23:27:19Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > George Carlin made the exact same rant in his book, _Brain Droppings_. Is Bruce Tinsley getting that desperate for ideas that he has to start plagiarizing? Sadly, I mainly remember this as a plot point from _Unhappily Ever After_ when the smart daughter falls for some guy after he corrects her pronunciation of _forte_ and she becomes enamoured with him and his smarts. Lord help me. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/26 "2005-11-14T23:54:12Z")
Based on the spelling and standard French pronunciation, it would be “fort”. However, to demonstrate that that is the proper way to pronounce it in English, one would have to demonstrate that there was indeed a time when the pronunciation improperly changed due to some new influence. I think rhyming poetry would be the only way to go for that i it happened before the age of sound recording. Of course, to justify the assumption that the English have traditionally pronounced “forte” the way the French do without evidence, one would have to demonstrate that the English have throughout history as a rule displayed a rigid dedication to correctly pronouncing words borrowed from other tongues. Good luck with that. I’m sticking with “for-tay”. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/27 "2005-11-15T00:26:07Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > Based on the spelling and standard French pronunciation, it would be “fort”. Um, as has been said, the French word is “fort”, pronounced /foR/ - no final /t/ at all. It doesn’t make much sense to say, “We spell this word differently from the French, but if they spelled it this way, they would pronounce it like so, and therefore so should we.” ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/28 "2005-11-15T09:47:21Z")
As far as I am concerned, this is just one more in a long list of reasons to dislike Mallard Filmore. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/29 "2005-11-15T15:55:51Z")
> [@Mac Guffin](#): > > As far as I am concerned, this is just one more in a long list of reasons to dislike Mallard Filmore. That’s the real point here. Obviously (see this thread), there’s an interesting story behind the pronunciation of the word, and looking into it gives one insight into the development and recording of language. But, as usual, Mallard just quacks moronic claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/30 "2005-11-15T18:58:13Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Forte comes from the french word fort, which is pronounced “for”. So he has a point. The english pronunciation seems to have been [borrowed from italian.](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forte) No, the French word is pronounced “fort”. It is the French word “fort” that is pronounced “for”. Yes, the word is the French word and really ought to be pronounced “fort”, and I do say that, but most people say “fortay” which is the pronunciation of an Italian musical term (and presumably also means strong, but I know no Italian). Also there are the pianoforte and the fortepiano which mean, respectively, soft/loud and loud/soft and I think there is some difference between them but I’ll be damned if I know what. Of course the first one was shortened to our “piano”. Pianos differred from other keyboard instruments, various kinds of harpsichords, in that you could play them at different volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/31 "2005-11-15T20:31:14Z")
I always pronounce it “fort.” I know I am pretty much alone in this. The thing is, I don’t get how this works out as being funny in a comic strip. Oh wait, Mallard Fillmore. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/32 "2005-11-16T01:43:38Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Um, as has been said, the French word is “fort”, pronounced /foR/ - no final /t/ at all. It doesn’t make much sense to say, “We spell this word differently from the French, but if they spelled it this way, they would pronounce it like so, and therefore so should we.” I suppose that that was the point I was really trying to make. There are so many assumptions that go into declaring that it ought to be pronounced “fort”. The one that never seems to get mentioned: has it been conclusively demonstrated that common phrases using the word predate the infiltration of italian musical conventions into English culture. In other words, could not the English word forte derive from both the French and the Italian? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878/33 "2005-11-16T02:11:17Z")
> [@Mac Guffin](#): > > As far as I am concerned, this is just one more in a long list of reasons to dislike Mallard Filmore. Drifting OT, but there’s a great parody of Mallard Fillmore in America - The Book: ``` * Panel 1 - Mallard: Liberals want to tie the hands of industry with more environmental legislation. * Panel 2 - Mallard: Why must we punish our most productive citizens with an income tax? * Panel 3 - Mallard: Ooops! I forgot to tell a joke! ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mallard-fillmore-on-forte/330878.md?page=1)