# Mama cats and kittennappings. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 27, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102 "2006-03-27T16:05:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/21 "2006-03-27T23:56:19Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > She must not have known about Pediatric Spay/Neuter! Kittens can be S/N as young as 8 weeks or 2.5 pounds. If your (general “you”) vet doesn’t practice it, ask WHY. And then find one who does. Some vets aren’t comfortable working on plumming that size. I was just dealing with a case the other day where the vet accidentially cut the cat’s uriters (the tubes that go from the kidney to the bladder) instead of the uterus. Both structures look like matched sets of little tubes way deep in the abdomen. To make things worse, you’re trying to work in an incision that’s only 1 inch wide Also, there is debate in the veterinary community over whether neutering males at ages less than 6 months stunts the growth of their urinary system, making them more prone to urinary blockages. There are also increased risks with anesthesia, blah, blah. Just wanted to share. Continue with the cute cat stories. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/22 "2006-03-28T01:18:38Z")
I had two female rats have litters at the same time, big litters. One mama rat took ALL the babies. She was nursing a huge pile of writhing ratlings so big she wasn’t even in contact with the cage floor while laying on them! I separated the the babies into two piles and they quickly ended up in one pile under one mother again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/23 "2006-03-28T01:34:21Z")
I’ve seen that with rats, although it usually appears that they simply combine nests. Either mother might be found on top of the brood at any time. Mice very definitely share mother duties. In fact, in a large cage with multiple mothers, all the mothers AND all the maiden aunts take turns sitting on the pinkies or fuzzies to keep them warm and to drag back any pup that rolls out of the nest. The “maiden aunts,” of course, provide no nursing service, but they do the nest perching and pup retieval tasks just like the actual mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/24 "2006-03-28T01:44:51Z")
We had a fat, neutered tom when I was little more than a pup myself. He was maybe two or three years old when mum got a couple of little black kittens. Tiny, adorable little things… That he would then lie down and nurse for hours on end. Cats iz weird. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/25 "2006-03-28T01:59:16Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > [A regular pair of Steve Martins, were you?](http://www.juggling.org/movies/title/Jerk.html) I solemnly swear on the penalties of perjury that there was no juggling involved. No . . . uh . . . well . . . we dressed them up in doll clothes and played with them like action figures, okay? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/26 "2006-03-28T15:36:18Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > Some vets aren’t comfortable working on plumming that size. I agree with that statement. However, I have some serious problems with the remainder of your post.😉 > [@Pullet](#): > > I was just dealing with a case the other day where the vet accidentially cut the cat’s uriters (the tubes that go from the kidney to the bladder) instead of the uterus. Both structures look like matched sets of little tubes way deep in the abdomen. To make things worse, you’re trying to work in an incision that’s only 1 inch wide Sorry, but that is just fookin inexcusable. The cat’s _ureters_ look nothing like the uterine horn. Nothing. In addition, an incision one inch long in a kitten is huge. I usually work with an incision about half that length. The length of the incision is irrelevant, however, because the ovaries/uterus are exteriorized. > [@Pullet](#): > > Also, there is debate in the veterinary community over whether neutering males at ages less than 6 months stunts the growth of their urinary system, making them more prone to urinary blockages. While there may be “debate”, it is without serious support. Since 1972 it has been known that in felines there is no effect on the size of the urethra when comparing cats neutered at 7 months versus 7 weeks. The only difference that has been shown is a slight delay in growth plate closure in early spay/neuters leading to a _slightly_ taller animal. There also have been studies suggesting a slight increase risk of urinary incontinance in bitches spayed early. Cite: [http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html](http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html) [http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm](http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm) > [@Pullet](#): > > There are also increased risks with anesthesia, blah, blah. Cite? I am aware of no increased morbidity/mortality when administration of anesthesia is done following a pediatric protocol. In fact, recovery is much faster. I do surgery four days a week in a fairly high volume. In the past 15 years of doing prepubertal gonadectomy I have witnessed more unexpected anesthesia death in adult versus prepubertal animals. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/27 "2006-03-28T16:25:12Z")
Vetbridge; My Step-Daughter’s kitten was spayed from the local humane society. She (the cat) has flaps on each side of her gut that bounce around when she runs. We’ve wondered if that was caused by an early spay. I guess not after reading your post. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/28 "2006-03-28T16:44:59Z")
Inguinal fat is due to obesity. A spayed female cat/dog/horse/etc may need fewer calories. Cats, like people, should be fed only enough to sustain an appropriate body weight. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/29 "2006-03-28T16:49:36Z")
> [@vetbridge](#): > > Inguinal fat is due to obesity. It looks more like she was obese and had lipo-suction. (sp) Thanks, I’ll ask her vet when next we go. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/30 "2006-03-28T17:54:50Z")
We had a calico kitten that would “nurse” on one of our dogs front toes. Until the hair was gone from that toe and the dog finally got sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![Aunt\_Flow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@Aunt\_Flow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aunt_Flow)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/31 "2006-03-28T18:07:18Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It looks more like she was obese and had lipo-suction. (sp) > Thanks, I’ll ask her vet when next we go. It’s commonly referred to as a ‘fat pad’ and it’s not uncommon in heavy kitties. They distribute their excess weight in a specific manner and the ‘pooch’ under the the tummy is the main site at first. Yes, when they stand it looks like skin flaps but it’s normal. And there’s nothing cuter than a shaved persian with a flabby belly, looks exactly like an old old man…with a very pissed off expression 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/32 "2006-03-28T18:30:51Z")
I’ve heard a lot of false “facts” about early spay/neuter. In my experience (working for a vet, working for a Humane Society and as the slave of cats) the younger ones seem to recover faster. I was told by a well-meaning but uninformed person that getting a male neutered early will “stunt his growth”. Thank goodness Mr. Spock was neutered at 8 weeks - otherwise I’d be able to ride him! ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/33 "2006-03-28T19:58:11Z")
> [@vetbridge](#): > > While there may be “debate”, it is without serious support. Since 1972 it has been known that in felines there is no effect on the size of the urethra when comparing cats neutered at 7 months versus 7 weeks. > > The only difference that has been shown is a slight delay in growth plate closure in early spay/neuters leading to a _slightly_ taller animal. There also have been studies suggesting a slight increase risk of urinary incontinance in bitches spayed early. > > Cite: [http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html](http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html) > [http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm](http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm) > > [N.B. Post re problems with anesthesia here, which vetbridge replied to:] > > Cite? I am aware of no increased morbidity/mortality when administration of anesthesia is done following a pediatric protocol. In fact, recovery is much faster. I do surgery four days a week in a fairly high volume. In the past 15 years of doing prepubertal gonadectomy I have witnessed more unexpected anesthesia death in adult versus prepubertal animals. Thank you **vetbridge** for that very informative post. And THANK YOU for doing pediatric spay/neuter! Everything you said is true in my experience of sending at least 1,000 kittens through pediatric spay/neuter. We have had perhaps three complications (all resolved; no deaths or permanent damage) in that number. For anyone who is interested, the difference in incision size and recovery is astounding. You can hardly believe these kittens had surgery. And, the incidence of accidental pregnancy is obviously much lower when the vets in a community promote pediatric S/N - and the fewer accidents, the fewer unwanted animals that get to be euthanized. I would frankly be very wary of any vet who, in 2006, still claims that pediatric S/N is dangerous or that there are significant risks with anesthesizing very young animals. That would indicate to me that such a vet is not keeping up with his veterinary education and is the vet version of an old country doctor who hasn’t progressed medically since 1960. I consider myself very fortunate to live in an area where most of the vets are very up-to-date in all the advances in veterinary medicine that have occurred in the past 15 years. Just my opinion. Sorry to offend anyone, it’s a strong topic for me. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/34 "2006-03-28T20:00:34Z")
**vetbridge** , another question: are there not two techniques for spay surgery? It thought one tended to cause the “saggy belly” effect and the other tended not to. The latter coming in more from the side, maybe? Am I not thinking of it correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/35 "2006-03-28T20:05:12Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > Thank you **vetbridge** for that very informative post. And THANK YOU for doing pediatric spay/neuter! Everything you said is true in my experience of sending at least 1,000 kittens through pediatric spay/neuter. We have had perhaps three complications (all resolved; no deaths or permanent damage) in that number. For anyone who is interested, the difference in incision size and recovery is astounding. You can hardly believe these kittens had surgery. And, the incidence of accidental pregnancy is obviously much lower when the vets in a community promote pediatric S/N - and the fewer accidents, the fewer unwanted animals that get to be euthanized. > > I would frankly be very wary of any vet who, in 2006, still claims that pediatric S/N is dangerous or that there are significant risks with anesthesizing very young animals. That would indicate to me that such a vet is not keeping up with his veterinary education and is the vet version of an old country doctor who hasn’t progressed medically since 1960. I consider myself very fortunate to live in an area where most of the vets are very up-to-date in all the advances in veterinary medicine that have occurred in the past 15 years. > > Just my opinion. Sorry to offend anyone, it’s a strong topic for me. Puppies are very similar. I had my two puppies (one male, one female) spayed and neutered as soon as possible. Just antecdotally, I agree that the recovery time for them seemed to be much shorter than it was for my other dog, who was spayed right before her first birthday. (She acted like she had some residual pain, while the two puppies acted like nothing had happened.) ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/36 "2006-03-28T20:58:49Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > **vetbridge** , another question: are there not two techniques for spay surgery? It thought one tended to cause the “saggy belly” effect and the other tended not to. The latter coming in more from the side, maybe? Am I not thinking of it correctly? There are (at least) two approaches; one through the ventral midline and one through the flank. The flank approach is often touted for barn cats that are released immediately upon recovery. Dehiscence does not usually lead to evisceration. > [@missbunny](#): > > I would frankly be very wary of any vet who, in 2006, still claims that pediatric S/N is dangerous or that there are significant risks with anesthesizing very young animals. Thanks for saying exactly what _I_ wanted to say.😃 ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/37 "2006-03-28T23:05:04Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Puppies are very similar. I had my two puppies (one male, one female) spayed and neutered as soon as possible. Just antecdotally, I agree that the recovery time for them seemed to be much shorter than it was for my other dog, who was spayed right before her first birthday. (She acted like she had some residual pain, while the two puppies acted like nothing had happened.) Is this a problem for the puppies? Doesn’t the animals need the testosterone/estrogen to reach full size and muscle developement? What about obesity and other health/temperamental problems? ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/38 "2006-03-28T23:09:17Z")
> [@vetbridge](#): > > There are (at least) two approaches; one through the ventral midline and one through the flank. The flank approach is often touted for barn cats that are released immediately upon recovery. Dehiscence does not usually lead to evisceration. The flank approach was what I was thinking of. Most of the feral TNR cats I’ve seen have been spayed via that method. Does it cause less Saggy Belly or is it just coincidence that the chubbettes have been spayed that way? (I do have a female who was done via the flank and she has no belly; while my other two - traditional midlines - do; and I’ve seen this occur in numerous others. Or it could be just that they are chubsters.) What are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/39 "2006-03-28T23:19:29Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > What are your thoughts? Hmmm. I have discussed this with a number of other veterinarians. The general consensus is that the cats that are flank approached tend to be fitter long term due to the fact that they are members of a population that are more likely to remain fit (outdoor cats). Alternatively, most of the ventral midline cats tend to be pampered housepets. So, I do not have a “real” answer. In both populations the same organs are being removed. There is no real logical reason why the flank approach would have a different end result. I doubt there would be grant money available to fund a study comparing the two approaches. When the use of an injectable sterilization method comes on the market there will be another group to compare.😃 ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102/40 "2006-03-28T23:24:45Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > Doesn’t the animals need the testosterone/estrogen to reach full size and muscle developement? Nope. In fact, several studies have shown that prepubertal gonadectomy leads to delayed closure of physes and therefore enhanced growth. > [@BluePitbull](#): > > What about obesity and other health/temperamental problems? Obesity is never a problem if the animal is fed the number of calories needed to maintain proper body weight. The only temperment problems that arise when discussing gonadectomy are in the dogs that are not castrated. The majority of bite wounds reported to physicians and the majority of human deaths due to dog bite are inflicted by intact male dogs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mama-cats-and-kittennappings/350102.md?page=3)