# Man arrested in connection with ignoring "bag checker" at Circuit City **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863 "2007-09-03T00:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/21 "2007-09-03T03:49:47Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] As far as I know, all states require the filing of a birth certificate within 6 weeks of the birth of a child. [/QUOTE] My Father was born at home and the birth was not attended by a physician. A physician filled out a birth certificate upon visiting the town or homestead some two weeks afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/22 "2007-09-03T03:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Actually, all US citizens are required to have an identification within 6 weeks of birth. It’s called a birth certificate and you must have one by law for the simple reason that you exist. [/QUOTE] No. The fact of your birth must be registered with the appropriate authorities, but you are not required (as far as I know) to carry proof that you were born as you go about your daily business. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/23 "2007-09-03T03:55:25Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Also, can you explain how a US citizen can be denied the right to employment for failing to provide a voluntary enrollment in Social Security ? [/QUOTE] Can you point me to the statute or constitutional clause that guarantees all Americans the “right to employment”? As far as I know, private enterprises can still decide who they wish to hire as long as they don’t violate Title VII. Any non-governmental agency in this country is free to demand identification before they hire someone. Freedom cuts both ways, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/24 "2007-09-03T03:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] No. The fact of your birth must be registered with the appropriate authorities, but you are not required (as far as I know) to carry proof that you were born as you go about your daily business. [/QUOTE] I don’t claim that you must carry a birth certificate, only that law requires that you be identified after your birth. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/25 "2007-09-03T03:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] I’ve posted in that thread. I am strongly opposed to any form of national ID cards. And no, I can’t answer your Social Security question. I didn’t realise that one could be denied employment for failing to register in a voluntary program. [/QUOTE] “Unless specifically exempt by law, everyone working in the United States is required to pay Social Security taxes on earnings from employment. These earnings are subject to Social Security tax without regard to the citizenship or place of residence of either the employer or the employee.” [http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_faqid=200&p\_created=956063005&p\_sid=JZfu6LKi&p\_accessibility=0&p\_redirect=&p\_lva=&p\_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0yNSwyNSZwX3Byb2RzPSZwX2NhdHM9NyZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTEuNyZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p\_li=&p\_topview=1](http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=200&p_created=956063005&p_sid=JZfu6LKi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfcm93X2NudD0yNSwyNSZwX3Byb2RzPSZwX2NhdHM9NyZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTEuNyZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1) ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/26 "2007-09-03T04:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] I don’t claim that you must carry a birth certificate, only that law requires that you be identified after your birth. [/QUOTE] Yes, you must be identified. As you were identified at birth. All that a birth cert proves is that someone was born. It is not ID. But the discussion has been about whether someone can be arrested for failing to provide ID. I submit that they should not be arrested, based on the idea that there is no requirement for US citizens to even _possess_ ID, let alone carry it. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/27 "2007-09-03T04:07:35Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] Can you point me to the statute or constitutional clause that guarantees all Americans the “right to employment”? As far as I know, private enterprises can still decide who they wish to hire as long as they don’t violate Title VII. Any non-governmental agency in this country is free to demand identification before they hire someone. Freedom cuts both ways, you know. [/QUOTE] I don’t dispute amy employers decision to hire whom they see fit nor the request for identification. Simply put, if you do not have a SS#, the government will force you from your job sooner or later, as you are required to pay SS if you work. And the right to work would probably fall under the whole premise of that “Life, Liberty and the pusuit of happiness” thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@MrDantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/28 "2007-09-03T04:08:08Z")
I am always amused when I hear about someone doing this. My question is: Why don’t people assume this is part of the checking out process? As long as I am still in THEIR store, what is the big deal if there is another person at the exit that double checks my bags? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/29 "2007-09-03T04:08:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Participation in the Social Security program is mandatory with respect to the payment of Social Security taxes. Unless specifically exempt by law, everyone working in the United States is required to pay Social Security taxes on earnings from employment. These earnings are subject to Social Security tax without regard to the citizenship or place of residence of either the employer or the employee. That’s from your link. A strange definition of a “voluntary” program. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/30 "2007-09-03T04:10:22Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] Yes, you must be identified. As you were identified at birth. All that a birth cert proves is that someone was born. It is not ID. But the discussion has been about whether someone can be arrested for failing to provide ID. I submit that they should not be arrested, based on the idea that there is no requirement for US citizens to even _possess_ ID, let alone carry it. [/QUOTE] Not quite. A birth certificate establishes your name, gender, mother, father, time and place of birth, race (I’m sure this is not done in someplaces nowdays) and usually your foot prints or hand prints. I’d say that’s a pretty darn good ID. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/31 "2007-09-03T04:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=MrDantastic] I am always amused when I hear about someone doing this. My question is: Why don’t people assume this is part of the checking out process? As long as I am still in THEIR store, what is the big deal if there is another person at the exit that double checks my bags? [/QUOTE] Because once you have paid for the goods, they are yours, not theirs. And because it’s lousy customer service to assume your customers are criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/32 "2007-09-03T04:13:19Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] That’s from your link. A strange definition of a “voluntary” program. [/QUOTE] I agree. However, the SS adminstration maintains that it is a voluntary program. And it really is. You just can’t work, open a bank account, leave the country legally…etc. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/33 "2007-09-03T04:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Not quite. A birth certificate establishes your name, gender, mother, father, time and place of birth, race (I’m sure this is not done in someplaces nowdays) and usually your foot prints or hand prints. I’d say that’s a pretty darn good ID. [/QUOTE] Well, try offering it to a police officer. I had a brother. He has a birth cert in the UK (similar-ish rules). He also has a death certificate. This proves nothing, and isn’t the same as demanding ID from people who are committing no crime. My assertion? There is no law requiring Americans to have ID. Thus, it cannot be a crime to fail to produce said ID if a police officer asks for it. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/34 "2007-09-03T04:18:28Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] Because once you have paid for the goods, they are yours, not theirs. And because it’s lousy customer service to assume your customers are criminals. [/QUOTE] When a clerk checks my money with one of those counterfiet markers, I usually ask if I can use it and then proceed to check the bills he or she gives back to me. The look on their face is priceless. How dare I think they might be giving me funny money ! Here is a good idea: When you go to Circuit City, ask to see their shipping records and paid invoices for the merchandise before you purchase it. You know, just to make sure they paid for it. You wouldn’t want to be in possesion of stolen merchandise, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/35 "2007-09-03T04:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] …race (I’m sure this is not done in someplaces nowdays) [/QUOTE] What do you mean “nowadays?” I was born in 1965, in Albany NY. My birth certificate says nothing about my race. No foot- or handprints, either. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/36 "2007-09-03T04:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] Well, try offering it to a police officer. I had a brother. He has a birth cert in the UK (similar-ish rules). He also has a death certificate. This proves nothing, and isn’t the same as demanding ID from people who are committing no crime. My assertion? There is no law requiring Americans to have ID. Thus, it cannot be a crime to fail to produce said ID if a police officer asks for it. [/QUOTE] I see where you are going but a birth certificate is a required piece of identification. Without it, you get no SS#, no license, nothing. It is your first and original ID. Required by law. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/37 "2007-09-03T04:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] I don’t dispute amy employers decision to hire whom they see fit nor the request for identification. Simply put, if you do not have a SS#, the government will force you from your job sooner or later, as you are required to pay SS if you work. And the right to work would probably fall under the whole premise of that “Life, Liberty and the pusuit of happiness” thing. [/QUOTE] Ah, I see we are mutually wooshing each other here. If the federal government guaranteed all its citizens a constitutional “right to work,” then if some bum off the street wandered drunkenly into any government building and demanded a job, they’d be required to give him one if he were unemployed at the time. What you’re saying is that the government has no right to prevent employment, a subtle yet important distinction. And while the bright-eyed libertarian in me agrees with you, there are some practical problems with this concept. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/38 "2007-09-03T04:22:30Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] I agree. However, the SS adminstration maintains that it is a voluntary program. And it really is. You just can’t work, open a bank account, leave the country legally…etc. [/QUOTE] Another reason to be opposed to “voluntary” ID, then. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/39 "2007-09-03T04:24:23Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] What do you mean “nowadays?” I was born in 1965, in Albany NY. My birth certificate says nothing about my race. No foot- or handprints, either. [/QUOTE] Mine does. I’m sure some of the information varies from state to state, even county to county. My offical certificate does not have the foot prints on it, I think that was just a hospital thing. The official one does however, have not my race, but my mother and fathers race listed as “white”. Hmmm…what does that make me ? ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/40 "2007-09-03T04:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] Ah, I see we are mutually wooshing each other here. If the federal government guaranteed all its citizens a constitutional “right to work,” then if some bum off the street wandered drunkenly into any government building and demanded a job, they’d be required to give him one if he were unemployed at the time. What you’re saying is that the government has no right to prevent employment, a subtle yet important distinction. And while the bright-eyed libertarian in me agrees with you, there are some practical problems with this concept. [/QUOTE] That was a poor choice of phrase and I agree with your correction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=3)