# Man arrested in connection with ignoring "bag checker" at Circuit City **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863 "2007-09-03T00:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/41 "2007-09-03T04:29:15Z")
Looking closer, it says in the race box: “Specifiy: White, Negro, American Indian, etc.” Issued in 1969. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/42 "2007-09-03T04:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] I see where you are going but a birth certificate is a required piece of identification. Without it, you get no SS#, no license, nothing. It is your first and original ID. Required by law. [/QUOTE] Well, to see where I am going, read the last line of my previous post to you. You get stopped by a cop and he demands ID, I don’t think a birth cert will cut it. It’s not ID. All it proves is that you were born - or, indeed, that someone with the name you are claiming was born. The rule is there largely to prevent infanticide. But despite hair-splitting, here’s my point: the Police should not and, in fact _cannot_ arrest you for failing to provide ID when there is no law that says you must have ID at all. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/43 "2007-09-03T04:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] Well, to see where I am going, read the last line of my previous post to you. You get stopped by a cop and he demands ID, I don’t think a birth cert will cut it. It’s not ID. All it proves is that you were born - or, indeed, that someone with the name you are claiming was born. The rule is there largely to prevent infanticide. But despite hair-splitting, here’s my point: the Police should not and, in fact _cannot_ arrest you for failing to provide ID when there is no law that says you must have ID at all. [/QUOTE] If you are driving, a birth certificate is no good for that priviledge. As ID, the birth certificate is the gold standard. You can’t even get another form of ID without it. I once lost my birth certificate. I couldn’t get a new license because I had no ID. No old license, no SS card. I can’t tell you enough that if you don’t have a birth certificate, it is nearly impossible to identify yourself to anyone. It was a monumentous task to get the registar to make a copy of my birth certificate so I could then apply for a new SS card so I could then get a license so I could then show it to the police when asked. While I agree with you in theory on the second point, you are quite wrong in reality, as much as I detest it. The police _can and will_ arrest people for failing to provide an ID. Is it legal ? I don’t think so. That’s not stopping them and they have the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/44 "2007-09-03T04:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Garfield226] I guess it also makes it pretty clear it’s not illegal to walk right by the guys checking the bags, since he would have been charged with that too, right? [/QUOTE] Or it just means that the officer figured that it was better to go with the one which seemed less likely to end up in court. I think you could make a decent argument that by not letting the person check your bag, you’re commiting theft. Similar to [getting your bag checked at a concert](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_151.html), by entering the store you are entering into a unstated contract with the store and it’s rules for dealing with you. And if their rule is that they will only do business with people who let them check their bag on the way out, then by not letting them check, you are breaking the contract. And as such, your right to have the stuff you purchased is rescinded. At that point, unless you give the purchases back to the store, you’re stealing the items. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/45 "2007-09-03T04:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Or it just means that the officer figured that it was better to go with the one which seemed less likely to end up in court. [/QUOTE] [nitpick]It’s the DA (or whatever the local equivalent) who determines what actual charges are filed, not the police.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/46 "2007-09-03T04:56:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] I think you could make a decent argument that by not letting the person check your bag, you’re commiting theft. Similar to [getting your bag checked at a concert](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_151.html), by entering the store you are entering into a unstated contract with the store and it’s rules for dealing with you. And if their rule is that they will only do business with people who let them check their bag on the way out, then by not letting them check, you are breaking the contract. And as such, your right to have the stuff you purchased is rescinded. At that point, unless you give the purchases back to the store, you’re stealing the items. [/QUOTE] I’m not so sure I agree. From the column: > [@](#): > > Note that there must always an element of free choice involved in searches. If you’re allowed into a concert and halfway through two of the promoter’s goons take it into their pebble-sized minds to forcibly search you again, you could have them charged with assault. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/47 "2007-09-03T04:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Or it just means that the officer figured that it was better to go with the one which seemed less likely to end up in court. I think you could make a decent argument that by not letting the person check your bag, you’re commiting theft. Similar to [getting your bag checked at a concert](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_151.html), by entering the store you are entering into a unstated contract with the store and it’s rules for dealing with you. And if their rule is that they will only do business with people who let them check their bag on the way out, then by not letting them check, you are breaking the contract. And as such, your right to have the stuff you purchased is rescinded. At that point, unless you give the purchases back to the store, you’re stealing the items. [/QUOTE] I don’t buy that theory. Perhaps if the bag checker or manager had offered the policy upon entering or if they had offered to refund your money that you paid or better yet, just prove that I stole something. Either way, it ticks me off enough that I might get arrested next time someone ask for my receipt. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/48 "2007-09-03T05:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Either way, it ticks me off enough that I might get arrested next time someone ask for my receipt. [/QUOTE] It’s entirely your right to not do business with them. Doing some Googling, though, seems to agree that at current it is legal to refuse to submit to a receipt check _unless you have signed a membership agreement_. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/49 "2007-09-03T05:23:43Z")
Okay, you guys have inspired me to do some legal research. The particular law in Ohio (where these events took place) regarding any ID requirements cites back to this case: _State v. Zefi_ Not Reported in N.E.2d, 2001 WL 253149 Ohio App. 10 Dist.,2001. (The “not reported” bit means it’s not mandatory authority - but it does end up getting cited like crazy in later cases.) > [@Zefi](#): > > Thus, the mere refusal to produce identification upon request by a police officer will not support a finding of obstructing official business. _id. at 4_ So yeah, they can arrest the poor guy, but it is unlikely any charges will be brought. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/50 "2007-09-03T05:28:25Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Doing some Googling, though, seems to agree that at current it is legal to refuse to submit to a receipt check _unless you have signed a membership agreement_. [/QUOTE] Which Circuit City doesn’t have. Hope this guy sues the pants off both the store and the cop that arrested him. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/51 "2007-09-03T05:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Which Circuit City doesn’t have. Hope this guy sues the pants off both the store and the cop that arrested him. [/QUOTE] Why would you hope that? The only reason it’s legal is because it hasn’t been made illegal yet. The only thing which makes it legal is that current law considers a sale complete as soon as money changes hands. In a factory-line style of purchasing like Circuit City wants, a transaction shouldn’t be completed until both parties are satisfied that it has. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/52 "2007-09-03T05:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] It’s entirely your right to not do business with them. Doing some Googling, though, seems to agree that at current it is legal to refuse to submit to a receipt check _unless you have signed a membership agreement_. [/QUOTE] It is equally their right to not be in business open to the public. Hence the membership qualification of entering a contract. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/53 "2007-09-03T05:40:47Z")
I have the same attitude as this guy. When I shop at Best Buy, CompUSA or Circuit City, there’s often a line of people waiting to get OUT of the store, and I just walk around them and laugh at why customers would not only submit to de-criminializing, but WAIT IN LINE to do it. IANAL, but as I understand it, this receipt check process is purely voluntary, and unless you set off the alarm while leaving the store, you are free to say “no thanks” and keep walking. The exceptions are for places like Cost-Co where you must sign a contract in order to shop there (and part of the contract states that they have the right to search your bags), and if you’re buying something that isn’t going to fit into a bag (like when I went with a friend to buy a boxed computer at Best Buy a couple years ago), the cashier should tell you that you will have to verify this purchase when leaving the store, at which point you can choose to cancel the sale. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/54 "2007-09-03T05:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Why would you hope that? The only reason it’s legal is because it hasn’t been made illegal yet. The only thing which makes it legal is that current law considers a sale complete as soon as money changes hands. In a factory-line style of purchasing like Circuit City wants, a transaction shouldn’t be completed until both parties are satisfied that it has. [/QUOTE] Which means that upon the giving of a reciept, the transaction is over. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/55 "2007-09-03T05:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Which means that upon the giving of a reciept, the transaction is over. [/QUOTE] Which is based on mom and pop store-era thinking. Better business practices–which in no way harm anyone and do work to deter illegal activity–should be protected by law. If those practices cost the stores money due to losing customers then that is of course the store’s choice. But they should still have that right (assuming that they put up a warning on the front door that they will be using such a technique.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/56 "2007-09-03T05:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] As ID, the birth certificate is the gold standard. You can’t even get another form of ID without it. I once lost my birth certificate. I couldn’t get a new license because I had no ID. No old license, no SS card. I can’t tell you enough that if you don’t have a birth certificate, it is nearly impossible to identify yourself to anyone. It was a monumentous task to get the registar to make a copy of my birth certificate so I could then apply for a new SS card so I could then get a license so I could then show it to the police when asked. [/quote] Well, the Social Security card isn’t an ID card. If you know your personal information, you should have no problem with getting a replacement. I know quite a few people who’ve used [these people](https://www.vitalchek.com/) (at the advice of the Passport Agency in San Francisco). ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/57 "2007-09-03T05:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Which is based on mom and pop store-era thinking. Better business practices–which in no way harm anyone and do work to deter illegal activity–should be protected by law. If those practices cost the stores money due to losing customers then that is of course the store’s choice. But they should still have that right (assuming that they put up a warning on the front door that they will be using such a technique.) [/QUOTE] Proving that treating each customer leaving your store as a potential theif “in no way harms anyone” is gonna be a tough one, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/58 "2007-09-03T06:02:18Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Well, the Social Security card isn’t an ID card. If you know your personal information, you should have no problem with getting a replacement. I know quite a few people who’ve used [these people](https://www.vitalchek.com/) (at the advice of the Passport Agency in San Francisco). [/QUOTE] Again, this is correct in theory but not so much in reality. All kinds of places use SS# as identification. Telephone co., power co., etc. It is required by many states to get a drivers license. To obtain a SS card, you must present a birth certificate or copy. To obtain a duplictae card, again, you must _document_ your identity, not just know your info. So, lose your card, your birth certificate and license: Good luck. To replace the lost Social Security card: Complete an Application For A Social Security Card (Form SS-5); and Show us documents proving: Age; and Identity. Take (or mail) your completed application and documents to your local Social Security office. [http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_faqid=251](http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=251) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/59 "2007-09-03T06:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Proving that treating each customer leaving your store as a potential theif “in no way harms anyone” is gonna be a tough one, I think. [/QUOTE] Okay, so how does it harm you? Or why would it be any more “injurious” from getting your bag checked going into a concert? Circuit City is assuming you to be a thief. Your concert hall is assuming you to be a Virginia Tech-style mass murderer. Wouldn’t the latter be more mentally damaging? Do you need to see a psychiatrist after going to a U2 concert to reassure you that you’re a good person? ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/60 "2007-09-03T06:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Which is based on mom and pop store-era thinking. Better business practices–which in no way harm anyone and do work to deter illegal activity–should be protected by law. If those practices cost the stores money due to losing customers then that is of course the store’s choice. But they should still have that right (assuming that they put up a warning on the front door that they will be using such a technique.) [/QUOTE] There IS such a right: [Shopkeeper’s Privilege](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopkeeper's_privilege). I am not too sure of how well the wiki article holds up, but ISTM that the CC employees may be held responsible for false imprisonment, although it’s pretty clear that more information is needed here, i.e. the point of view of CC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=4)