# Man arrested in connection with ignoring "bag checker" at Circuit City **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863 "2007-09-03T00:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/641 "2007-09-15T03:49:37Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Once the money has been exchanged, the item is no longer ‘merchandise’ but ‘property’ and no, they’re not required to let you do anything. [/QUOTE] OKay, but if a customer is walking out the door with merchandise and no visible receipt then the merchant doesn’t know if it’s their property of not. Aren’t merchants allowed to require a receipt before they let their property leave the premises? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/642 "2007-09-15T03:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=Bearflag70] If the merchant has probable cause to suspect an item is being stolen, then the merchant may detain the customer long enough to conduct a reasonable investigation by searching the customer’s property but not the person. [/QUOTE] What would be reasonable? I would think merchandise with no bag or visible receipt would be probable cause. “Excuse me sir or madam, I need to see a receipt for that item you are holding.” Would “No thanks” and keep walking be an acceptable response? Would it be defending ones civil rights to say. “I’ve purchased this item but I’m not required by law to show you a receipt. Either accuse me of shoplifting and call the police or let me go” Would that person be a dick if they responded that way? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/643 "2007-09-15T04:09:31Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Thirteen pages of thread and, sadly, this still needs to be said. _Absent probable cause_, no search is allowed. _If probable cause had existed in the linked situation_, no one here would have protested. [/QUOTE] So, leaving with a bag means no probable cause. The question here is , if a customer walks out the door with obvious merchandise not in a bag and no visible receipt is that probable cause to stop them and demand a receipt? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/644 "2007-09-15T06:07:44Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] So, leaving with a bag means no probable cause. The question here is , if a customer walks out the door with obvious merchandise not in a bag and no visible receipt is that probable cause to stop them and demand a receipt? [/QUOTE] Unless you have an appellate court opinion one way or the other that is close to your facts, the answer is probably, “it depends on your judge/jury that day.” A case like your hypo would likely get fled then settle out after a few months of arguing, posturing, and puffing about what each side thinks a court would do if it went all the way to trial. If you are asking whether is _should_ be probable cause, my gut says it should not be probable cause unless the merchant observes someone pick up an item and fail to pay for it before heading for the door. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/645 "2007-09-15T12:20:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bearflag70] Unless you have an appellate court opinion one way or the other that is close to your facts, the answer is probably, “it depends on your judge/jury that day.” A case like your hypo would likely get fled then settle out after a few months of arguing, posturing, and puffing about what each side thinks a court would do if it went all the way to trial. If you are asking whether is _should_ be probable cause, my gut says it should not be probable cause unless the merchant observes someone pick up an item and fail to pay for it before heading for the door. [/QUOTE] So whether the customer has bagged merchandise or or is just carrying merchandise out the door with no bag or visible receipt the merchant has no right to detain them if they insist they paid for their merchandise but stubbornly refuse to prove it with a receipt, goods check? Is that it? IYO,What kind of security position does that place the merchant in? On a gut level, would you say the customer with merchandise and no bag is a jerk if they stubbornly refuse to produce a receipt when asked, or, like Righi, are they just defending their civil rights and not going to let those assholes at the store push them around? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/646 "2007-09-15T12:44:17Z")
If you look carefully at the definition of probable cause, you have to have had someone watching them take it and carry it out without paying. Just seeing them carry it from a register to the door is not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/647 "2007-09-15T15:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Well there ya go. I think your friend has the right spin on it and has found a more reasonable way to protest the policy. IMO Righi could easily have done something similar and made an effective protest even though the CC employees were in the wrong. When he stubbornly refused and even called 911 while his siblings were crying in the car he consciously participated in escalating a minor situation. The attitude I get from his comments on his website is that it’s more about _him_ being right and proving it, than it is about civil rights. [/QUOTE] There’s nothing minor about being detained. It’s illegal. His siblings were crying because a strange man was blocking the door of the car. Again, this was store behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/648 "2007-09-15T16:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] So, leaving with a bag means no probable cause. The question here is , if a customer walks out the door with obvious merchandise not in a bag and no visible receipt is that probable cause to stop them and demand a receipt? [/QUOTE] I don’t know. It might be. In my experience, that has only happened when the boxed item is too large to be bagged, and the cashier staples the receipt to the box. If boxed items are supposed to have receipts stapled to them, and one doesn’t, I would say that that is probable cause. But I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/649 "2007-09-15T17:21:58Z")
[QUOTE=Bearflag70] Unless you have an appellate court opinion one way or the other that is close to your facts, the answer is probably, “it depends on your judge/jury that day.” A case like your hypo would likely get fled then settle out after a few months of arguing, posturing, and puffing about what each side thinks a court would do if it went all the way to trial. If you are asking whether is _should_ be probable cause, my gut says it should not be probable cause unless the merchant observes someone pick up an item and fail to pay for it before heading for the door. [/QUOTE] **COUGH** post #75 **COUGH** ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/650 "2007-09-15T19:57:26Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] **COUGH** post #75 **COUGH** [/QUOTE] I had the feeling this thread was going in circles. ---
**Author:** ![back\_before\_irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@back\_before\_irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/back_before_irony)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/651 "2007-09-15T22:41:54Z")
I think establishing identity is part of cooperating with an investigation. So many witnesses and accused give false names, especially if they are guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/652 "2007-09-16T00:30:37Z")
[QUOTE=back before irony] I think establishing identity is part of cooperating with an investigation. So many witnesses and accused give false names, especially if they are guilty. [/QUOTE] Post #8, 12, 15, 17, 42, 49 … ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/653 "2007-09-16T00:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] There’s nothing minor about being detained. It’s illegal. His siblings were crying because a strange man was blocking the door of the car. Again, this was store behavior. [/QUOTE] and you know they were crying for only this reason because??? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/654 "2007-09-16T01:03:29Z")
Five more days, folks. Just five more days. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/655 "2007-09-20T15:52:24Z")
If anyone gets any news on this, I’m sure we are all hanging on the edges of our seats. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2007, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/656 "2007-09-20T15:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Scheduled Hearing Tomorrow is Cancelled > September 19th, 2007 > > I have been contacted by a number of people who indicated that they are planning on attending my hearing which was originally scheduled for tomorrow, September 20th 2007 in Brooklyn, Ohio Mayors court. I just received confirmation a few minutes ago that there will be no hearing tomorrow. I am very appreciative of the people that wanted to be there, and I’m very sorry for the last minute notice. Please do not show up at the municipal building as I will not be there. I’m sorry to be brief in my posting but I can’t say much more at the moment. I will provide more information at a later time. > > -Michael So much for that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/657 "2007-09-21T00:31:00Z")
I liked this from comments bolding mine News update on the story from The Plain Dealer: > [@](#): > > ” Brooklyn - The city prosecutor on Wednesday dropped a misdemeanor charge of obstructing official police business against Circuit City shopper Michael Righi. And **Righi agreed that a police officer did nothing wrong in arresting him** after he refused to show his driver’s license outside the store Sept. 1. ” > > We the public clearly don’t know the details, but does this mean that Michael Righi and/or attorney Ian Friedman now believe it is acceptable for law enforcement in Ohio or elsewhere the USA to demand identification papers from someone standing on a public sidewalk? Hopefully there will be some sort of statement addressing this issue. > > This outcome has the potential to set a very dark precedent for what is left of our freedom and anonymity, as with this settlement there seems to be little disincentive to any police department establishing a mandatory ID checkpoint (complete with check of the error-filled no-fly list) in the center of town. OMG my civil rights are surely lost now without Righi to fight the noble fight. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/658 "2007-09-21T00:40:13Z")
There has to be some misinformation given by the reporter as these statements don’t jibe: > [@](#): > > Righi maintained police had no right to ask for a driver’s license from a person not driving a car, a contention backed up later by legal experts. > [@](#): > > Righi’s attorney, Ian Friedman, said Wednesday that the Brooklyn prosecutor dropped the charge after Friedman agreed that police did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/659 "2007-09-21T01:51:23Z")
wow, the bag checker sounds like a real douchebag. can you imagine having that kind of job and screwing with people like that? It’s like, go get a state job were mediocrity rules. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863/660 "2007-09-21T01:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] There has to be some misinformation given by the reporter as these statements don’t jibe: [/QUOTE] It’s the difference we’ve been discussing. The technicality of the law vs the interpretation and application of the law. They made a deal. Both statements jibe with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-arrested-in-connection-with-ignoring-bag-checker-at-circuit-city/417863.md?page=34)