[QUOTE=Bearflag70]
Many people never read a receipt unless and until a refund is needed.
[/QUOTE]
Receipt, hell. I always pay with a debit card and the total comes up right on the confirmation screen.
[QUOTE=Fish]
Receipt, hell. I always pay with a debit card and the total comes up right on the confirmation screen.
[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah, but you can’t pull this with debit cards. The cashier can put cash in his pocket, but can’t put debit card reciepts in his pocket and get the cash.
I’m not denying that this kind of thing is perhaps on the way out as technology progresses and stores introduce all kinds of features (often, to prevent it… I never realized why they said “if you get no receipt, it’s xxxx” before).
But the question was “does this kind of thing happen”. It appears that it does.
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
That said, opening up a bag that contains items from the store that weren’t yours seconds ago and shouldn’t yet have tampons or naked pictures of your mistress in them, is not the same as opening up your purse or pulling out your pockets for obvious reasons.
[/QUOTE]
But that was the whole point. According to Magellan’s argument, privacy is not the issue but rather convienence (or rather a lack of major inconvienence). His logic would extend to saying that if the store asks and you refuse to put up with the minor annoyance of opening your purse/pocket - then you’re an asshole.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I have appreciated your input. I think that’s where large box stores are missing out because it’s harder for them to be part of the community. WalMart tries with a lot of programs but then they do other things that are very non community friendly. I’m glad to be part of a still successful independent business and try to see it as part of our local community of musicians both professional and amateur. As you can imagine from my location, thats a big community. I find that treating people with respect and courtesy and showing them you care about their purchases big and small means that most customers don’t begrudge you making a profit and in fact would rather shop with you to help you stay in business. The larger the staff gets the more of a challenge it is to keep everyone on the same page but we’re doing okay and still tweaking the details after an expansion and a staff increase. I’m not an owner so I don’t set policy but I can influence it and make judgment calls on how it’s executed.
Concerning loss prevention. What about the members only like Sam’s club and Costco’s Their’s must be down somewhat.
[/QUOTE]
You work in Nashville ? At a music store ?
We need to talk ! Me
[QUOTE=whorfin]
But that misses the point. It doesn’t matter what’s in the bag. It doesn’t matter if it’s my desk drawer our underwear drawer. It’s MY PROPERTY (and I don’t think you disagree with me on that point).
[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t disagree with you. I was merely pointing out what the difference was, not saying that there aren’t also similarities
[QUOTE=SaintCad]
But that was the whole point. According to Magellan’s argument, privacy is not the issue but rather convienence (or rather a lack of major inconvienence). His logic would extend to saying that if the store asks and you refuse to put up with the minor annoyance of opening your purse/pocket - then you’re an asshole..
[/quote]
I don’t think that was his logic since he specified (bolding mine), “No one has proposed that they be allowed to, or want to, search pockets, underwear, trunks or cavities.”
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
No, I don’t disagree with you. I was merely pointing out what the difference was, not saying that there aren’t also similarities
I don’t think that was his logic since he specified (bolding mine), “No one has proposed that they be allowed to, or want to, search pockets, underwear, trunks or cavities.”
[/QUOTE]
I see your point, that there are differences; I think the difference you’ve brought up is relevant to what people actually do, but I don’t think there is any legal difference.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
I have not said that the kid did anything illegal, only that he acted like an asshole. And I do think that the law shold allow stores to check the bag they gave you as you exit. I foresee signs being put up as you walk into the store advising you of the policy of bag checking and that sign changing the equation when you exit.
[/quote]
That kind of reminds me of the signs that say “We reserve the right to check all bags.” Fine, I suppose I can just tell them that I reserve the right not to have my bags searched. Seriously, just because a store puts out a sign doesn’t mean I’m legally obligated to follow it.
Marc
I will point out that according to the man’s blog, http://www.michaelrighi.com/
Santura and Joe are two employees. That is definitely detainment.
Also, from today’s update, he seems to be a Randian, which does firmly put him in the asshole camp, but explains pretty much everything.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
That kind of reminds me of the signs that say “We reserve the right to check all bags.” Fine, I suppose I can just tell them that I reserve the right not to have my bags searched. Seriously, just because a store puts out a sign doesn’t mean I’m legally obligated to follow it.
Marc
[/QUOTE]
You don’t have to submit to the search, but the store, theater, etc. does have the right to not allow you entry or kick you out of the event for non-compliance.
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
You don’t have to submit to the search, but the store, theater, etc. does have the right to not allow you entry or kick you out of the event for non-compliance.
[/QUOTE]
Well, they have the right to kick you out for any non-prohibited reason, or tell you they won’t serve you.
That is, to my mind, the only legitimate threat they can make if you refuse to show a receipt; perhaps an answer to your hope earlier that we could figure out exactly what a store could do if you didn’t show a receipt/allow a search.
But you can be sure that if they kick me out for not letting them search my bag, my property is coming with me.
[QUOTE=Iknewit]
You work in Nashville ? At a music store ?
We need to talk ! Me
[/QUOTE]
[hijack]
How about that. this is me.
You would love our store. Most of the staff are pros with varying illustrious backgrounds. Most have just gotten tired of the road and/or the intermittent income it brings.
After years of playing on the road I came to Nashville to explore the songwriting world. It’s been a fun trip and a real education so far. What an amazing creative community of varied music it is.
firefox wouldn’t let me listen to your tunes but I immediately liked your “about the songs” section. How true. Feel free to Email me if you like and keep on writing and singing.
[end hijack]
[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
No, I don’t disagree with you. I was merely pointing out what the difference was, not saying that there aren’t also similarities
I don’t think that was his logic since he specified (bolding mine), “No one has proposed that they be allowed to, or want to, search pockets, underwear, trunks or cavities.”
[/QUOTE]
And thus his argument is fallacious. Magellan has built his entire argument on the idea that by not being willing to open your bag to the checker, you are an asshole. Why? Because it is an extremely minor imposition and it can create a major inconvienence to the store. If we grant that his premise is correct (I don’t agree, but let’s go with it for now) then I would contend that opening up a purse or pocket is just as minor and more likely to catch shoplifter (i.e. protect the store’s interest). “But wait!” he cries, “No one is advocating THAT!” What then is the difference given his minor inconvienence vs trouble it causes premise?!
I will be so bold and answer for him (since he’ll probably correct me anyways). He made a tacit assumption that it is reasonable to have a right to privacy in regards to our purse/pockets but not with the bag o’ stuff that was just rung up. Am I correct Magellan?
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
I will point out that according to the man’s blog, http://www.michaelrighi.com/
Santura and Joe are two employees. That is definitely detainment.
Also, from today’s update, he seems to be a Randian, which does firmly put him in the asshole camp, but explains pretty much everything.
[/QUOTE]
What’s a Randian and why do you think that makes him an asshole?
Even with the employee standing in front of the car I think he could have announced “We are leaving now. You need to move for your own safety.” Then driving forward slowly what were the CC employees options? Either get out of the way or further escalate the situation by trying to physically restrain them. I think they had already shown they were reluctant to do that. Maybe not.
Earlier I mentioned a mother and her son being detained at WalMart for hours in a case of mistaken identity. When I first heard that I thought,
if it was me at some point my patience would have been exhausted and I would have said “I haven’t done anything wrong, you have no right to detain me any longer. I’m walking out the door and if anyone physically detains me there will be some serious consequences because that constitutes assault.”
I feel the same way about this except I would have made more effort than he did to explain my thinking to the manager. I wouldn’t have called the cops. I would have said “I’'m leaving now” and let them decide whether they wanted to act to escalate the situation.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
That kind of reminds me of the signs that say “We reserve the right to check all bags.” Fine, I suppose I can just tell them that I reserve the right not to have my bags searched. Seriously, just because a store puts out a sign doesn’t mean I’m legally obligated to follow it.
Marc
[/QUOTE]
Thats true. If I come to your house and don’t respect your feelings about what appropriate behavior is what happens?
[QUOTE=Bearflag70]
Many people never read a receipt unless and until a refund is needed.
[/QUOTE]
correct and it’s easy for someone to try it and just go “whoops my mistake” if caught.
then try it again a few customers later.
[QUOTE=whorfin]
I do see your points, (especially about the bonus–). Maybe Cosmodan can enlighten us as to whether cashiers do commit that kind of fraud-he’s the one with the experience. I won’t respond point-by point, but will make one general comment.
[/QUOTE]
What kind of fraud were you specifically talking about? I’ve seen a bunch.
I don’t remember employees ringing up the wrong amount so they can pocket the cash. Usually it’s a matter of slipping some cash from a register used by several people so the store can’t be sure who did it. A customer hands you a bunch of twenties and you palm one as they go in and stuff like that.
Often employees will work with outsiders to steal from the store in ways others have already suggested. Customers do bogus returns all the time. You buy something and in a day or so you come back or go to same chain different location and take that item off the shelf and return it with your receipt. Now you have the item and a full refund.
Employees will often help their partners in crime use bogus credit cards by not following procedure and pleading ignorance or a mistake. Employees in customer service will help their friends get credit for returns they didn’t actually make. Employees in the warehouse will load a better item onto a friends truck than he actually purchased. There are dozens of ways.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
correct and it’s easy for someone to try it and just go “whoops my mistake” if caught.
then try it again a few customers later.
[/QUOTE]
As in “whoops my mistake, I meant to swipe the box with your camera in it but I swiped a box a box of CD-Rs instead and knew that your camera that cost $99.99 would cost $106.99 with tax because I’m good at math, that’s why I said 106.99 out loud instead of reading the LCD display which only reads $13.90”?
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Thats true. If I come to your house and don’t respect your feelings about what appropriate behavior is what happens?
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you mean by this sentence. I’m not trying to be a jerk, your other post are pretty clear, but I’m unsure what you’re trying to say here.
Marc
[QUOTE=MGibson]
I have no idea what you mean by this sentence. I’m not trying to be a jerk, your other post are pretty clear, but I’m unsure what you’re trying to say here.
[/QUOTE]
I think he’s saying you’d probably kick him out of your house if he displayed inappropriate behavior just as you’d be kicked out of a store/concert/event for not allowing them to check the contents of your bag.
[QUOTE=MGibson]
I have no idea what you mean by this sentence. I’m not trying to be a jerk, your other post are pretty clear, but I’m unsure what you’re trying to say here.
Marc
[/QUOTE]
Xray pretty much said it. Being surprised and protesting a policy when you discover it accidentally is one thing. If you decided to shop somewhere regularly you’d be expected to respect their policies or not come back. So, per your previous post. Ignoring the sign once might work fine. Repeatedly, probably not.