Man arrested in connection with ignoring "bag checker" at Circuit City

Great Debates
501

[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
Well, how about we get an expert on this.
http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm

This gentleman seems to be an advisor on this sort of thing, and he seems to be saying that, essentially, everything the man who was arrested did, he had a right to do.

(I was once assaulted by a security guard at a CompUSA for not showing him the receipt. I was holding my only purchase, a computer case. He grabbed me and tried to stop me from getting in the car. I asked he not be fired, but educated. He was fired. The story can be found in one of my previous postings, circa '03 or so.)

Oh, and one thing. If you have a right not to be searched, and exercise the right, that does not create probable cause. That’s like a cop asking to search your car. Refusing that does not give him probable cause to search your car.
http://www.crimedoctor.com/shopliftingPC.htm
These are the steps which establish probable cause.

Simple, isn’t it?
[/QUOTE]

Almost as simple as just showing your receipt in the first place.

502

[QUOTE=magellan01]
B-b-b-but, he didn’t have to open the bag…the law says…wha, wha, wha… Well, the law of not being an asshole says that if you want to make what you view is a principled stand over some issue the size of a broken paperclip, you do it so YOU are the only one that is inconvenienced.

[/QUOTE]

Is that a state law or United States Code?

503

[QUOTE=spifflog]
Almost as simple as just showing your receipt in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

It was heavy, the receipt was in my pocket, and he didn’t ask me till I was already out the door. Sod that.

504

[QUOTE=SaintCad]
Is that a state law or United States Code?
[/QUOTE]

It’s a law of The Universe. See Cosmic Code, Article 6, Subsection 2.d, under the heading: Justifications and Allowances for Characterzations of Asshole, Jerk, Self-Righteous Prick, Self-Centered Cock Sucker, Self-Important Shithead, Egomaniacal Self-Fellater, or any combination of the aforementioned.

Hope that helps.

505

[QUOTE=whorfin]
One of the reasons this offends me is that bag checking is really not meant to protect against shoplifters. It’s meant to protect against crooked employees.

It stops the person on the register for ringing up that plasma TV as a stick of gum (and later splitting the haul with the person who “buys” it).

So really, the reciept checking is making us into free corporate security for the store.

That’s why this offends me; I don’t feel any obligation (absent some inducement) to help the store with its own employee problems. (I also don’t feel any obligation to help it stop shoplifters, for many reasons, including my own liability, my time, but that’s another issue).
[/QUOTE]

Why do you care who is stealing? If the theft in the store at hand forces the store to increase it’s costs by 5%, do you care who caused this increase, an employee or a customer?

506

[QUOTE=Bearflag70]
My post #493 goes to this issue, but does not totally answer the question. I think your hypothetical will come down to the mood of any given jury on any given day. Unless there is an appellate case out there that is pretty damn close to your fact pattern, there is no “right” answer.
[/QUOTE]

That’s pretty much what I was thinking. It’s hard to sort out who’s intent was what after the fact , especially as people put a little spin on their side of the story. A judge has to sort out as best they can and make a call.

I also think most of the time discretion is the wisest path. We’re not always wise though are we? :slight_smile:

507

[QUOTE=magellan01]
The policy to check someone’s bag started the first time they, well, checked someone’s bag. Feel free to contact the store and inquire about the date and time.
[/QUOTE]

I never asked that. If you’re hearing voices it means someone’s talking to you. Respond to THEIR questions.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Actually, they treated hiim like a reasonable person, a non-asshole. That was their second mistake (after not knowing the law).
[/QUOTE]
Actually they treated a paying customer like a thief. Not only did the shopper do nothing wrong, he responded politely with a “no thank you”. He was the polar opposite of an asshole. The manager of the store had plenty of time to figure out his mistake but instead chose to ramp it up. He is responsible for making the children cry because he is the one making a mountain out of a no-hill and he committing a crime in the process.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Yes, the whippings, thumbscrews and threats to chop off his hands were beyond the pale.
[/QUOTE]
Again, you’re addressing something I didn’t say. I asked you when the store policy started for illegally detaining customers. It’s a rhetorical question because the answer is never. It’s illegal. But you continue to argue exaggerated points that were never made in an attempt to steer the debate down an emotional rat-hole.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Yes. You’re right here. They might lose some customers in the process. On the other hand, I will write them a letter in support, while recommending they find some way within the law to check bags if they feel they must. Perhaps a sign of some sort, on the door or at the register. That and I will go out of my way to give them my business. So, who knows, maybe they’ll actually gain customers. Given the way most people I know feel about assholes, I think it’s a good bet.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know of a single person who likes to be stopped at a store to verify his or her honesty.

I encourage you to write them a letter of support and if you have time maybe hand out fliers explaining the incident to CC customers.

508

[QUOTE=Magiver]

I don’t know of a single person who likes to be stopped at a store to verify his or her honesty.
.
[/QUOTE]

Do you know anyone who doesn’t feel like their honesty is being questioned just because of a bag check?

509

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Do you know anyone who doesn’t feel like their honesty is being questioned just because of a bag check?
[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t.

510

[QUOTE=Magiver]
No, I don’t.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t you know anyone who is Costo Member? They check your bag every time. Now that is a club, and you have to pay to join and agree to their terms, which makes searching your bag legal, but still, shouldn’t every single member (that you know) be offended that they’re being treated like a thief? You may want to ask them why they pay a membership fee to suffer such grave indignity every time they leave the store.

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Actually they treated a paying customer like a thief. Not only did the shopper do nothing wrong, he responded politely with a “no thank you”.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I’d like him to try that trick trying to re-enter a dance club: 'What do you mean you want to see the back of my hand. No, thank you. They’re perfectly comfortable right where they are, in my pockets. Why are you treating me like a dishonest person. Now let me pass or I will call the police." Oh, I’d pay good money to see that.

No, they treated him like a customer. I’m sure they are of the mind that the VAST majority of their customers are thieves, but they feel they need to check everyone for a couple of reasons. They’ve checked my bag, and I never felt fir a second that they were treating me like a thief or in any demeaning way. The more you chant “they treated him like a thief” doesn’t make it any truer. More humorous, maybe, but not truer.

[QUOTE=Magiver]
He was the polar opposite of an asshole.
[/QUOTE]

Funny one. Feel free to nominate him for a Nobel Prize or the Medal of Freedom. My money says he’s more likely to wind up with a Darwin Award, and not a moment too soon.

511

[QUOTE=Magiver]
No, I don’t.
[/QUOTE]

You need to get out more. There are lots of us.

512

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Don’t you know anyone who is Costo Member? They check your bag every time. Now that is a club, and you have to pay to join and agree to their terms, which makes searching your bag legal, but still, shouldn’t every single member (that you know) be offended that they’re being treated like a thief? You may want to ask them why they pay a membership fee to suffer such grave indignity every time they leave the store.
[/QUOTE]
We don’t have Cosco’s but we have Sam’s and they don’t bag anything. You are essentially walking out the door with a shopping cart full of stuff.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
No, they treated him like a customer. I’m sure they are of the mind that the VAST majority of their customers are thieves, but they feel they need to check everyone for a couple of reasons. They’ve checked my bag, and I never felt fir a second that they were treating me like a thief or in any demeaning way. The more you chant “they treated him like a thief” doesn’t make it any truer. More humorous, maybe, but not truer.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not chanting anything. I’m pointing out the obvious. Circuit City is in the discount retail electronics business. There is little price-point difference in this market. The only thing they have to offer is selection and customer satisfaction. Put another way, everything they sell can be purchased at a competing store.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Funny one. Feel free to nominate him for a Nobel Prize or the Medal of Freedom. My money says he’s more likely to wind up with a Darwin Award, and not a moment too soon.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how turning down an unnecessary request gets a Darwin award but standing in front of a car seems like candidate material. My money is telling me to shop at stores that treat me the way I want to be treated.

513

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
You need to get out more. There are lots of us.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t know what to tell you. All my friends were raised with good manners and we expect that from the places we do business with.

I don’t know why Circuit City went out of business in my area but I do remember I wasn’t impressed with the service provided. I only made one purchase and never returned. It wasn’t a boycott as much as the fact there is a surplus of similar stores.

I was a marketing major in college and while it has nothing to do with my career I was exposed to a never-ending series of case studies. CC is in a very competitive market with slim profit margins. It doesn’t take much to close a store.

A good store manager understands what negative feedback is. It’s a gift from a customer. While you and magellan01 are content to submit to a bag check, my friends and I are not. If we don’t say anything then the store doesn’t know why they are losing customers. They end up paying someone to research the problem.

514

[QUOTE=Magiver]
We don’t have Cosco’s but we have Sam’s and they don’t bag anything. You are essentially walking out the door with a shopping cart full of stuff.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, same with Cosco. And that makes a big difference to you in this discussion? How about the color of the bag a store may have? Does that change the equation, too? Come on, Macgiver, you’re more reasonable than this.

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Circuit City is in the discount retail electronics business. There is little price-point difference in this market. The only thing they have to offer is selection and customer satisfaction. Put another way, everything they sell can be purchased at a competing store.
[/QUOTE]

At a competitive price. It’s a mainly a price play. And with the margins, as you correctly state, so low, they have to keep expenses down. Theft is an expense. And I’m sure that if they didn’t think that their theft-reduction strategy was cost effective, they wouldn’t be doing it. Granted that doesn’t make it legal. That is a differetn discussion. Although, for the record, I do think that it is perfectly reasonable and should be legal. Although I would favor a sign on the way in so those people who genuinely would be upset by such horrible and degradiong treatment :rolleyes: could take their business elsewhere.

[QUOTE=Magiver]
I don’t see how turning down an unnecessary request gets a Darwin award but standing in front of a car seems like candidate material. My money is telling me to shop at stores that treat me the way I want to be treated.
[/QUOTE]

And you should. And you sholdn’t go to any nightclub or danceclub or concert where they might ask you for proof of your right to be there should you need to go out to your car or get some air. I truly don’t see what all the fuss is about. Are you really that touch about being treated like a thief. I know I am not a thief so their wanting to check ALL bags doesn;t disturb me in the least. If they were checking bags selectively I could see how that would be a problem. But not this.

Still, my point is that—even with the law on his side—Righi’s actions, takiing into account what I posted about his family, were 1000% assholish. Yes, 1000%.

515

[QUOTE=Magiver]
A good store manager understands what negative feedback is. It’s a gift from a customer. While you and magellan01 are content to submit to a bag check, my friends and I are not. If we don’t say anything then the store doesn’t know why they are losing customers. They end up paying someone to research the problem.
[/QUOTE]

And that is a good point. So a discussion with the store matter would be helpful and 100% non-assholish. As would a letter to the President of the company or the Board of Directors. If Righi did this I wouldn’t be calling him the asshole the actions he did take mandate.

516

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Don’t know what to tell you. All my friends were raised with good manners and we expect that from the places we do business with.
[/QUOTE]

Me too. I don’t think them asking me to stop at a bag check is bad manners. Different stores have different “house rules” If I shop there I try to respect their rules. If I don’t like their rules or the way they are implemented I won’t go back. I probably won’t go out of my way to break the rules and create an incident {other than telling them I wasn’t pleased} while I’m there. In part because I have good manners.

I worked for CC for a few years. I saw plenty of bad calls. Sometimes it seems like the bigger a chain gets the harder it is for the boys at the home office to actually see what’s going on at the store level. District managers should spend a few days working in their stores and waiting on and talking to customers and staff. Instead they would hire some research firm to tell them exactly what the staff had been telling them for years.

I do think US customers are a bit spoiled by the fact that they do have so many stores to pick from. I often see people in these threads refer to shopping somewhere as “doing them a favor” It’s not. It’s a business relationship. The store offers a product and/or a service that the customer wants or needs and presents it in a manner that creates return business. That’s means being professional, helpful, and courteous. I also expect my customers to be respectful of my staff and my establishment.

You’re right. Feedback, both positive and negative is a huge part of it. Being human we sometimes make mistakes or drop the ball. I’d much rather have a customer tell me about a problem and give me a chance to change it or fix it than just decide not to come back and not say anything about it.

I think many people don’t mind the bag check and don’t feel as if their honesty is being questioned any more than they feel they’re suspected of being a terrorist by the security at the airport. My guess is this same customer who went out of his way to protest and assert his rights here submits at the airport.
I do think the manager made a stupid mistake and a bad call to follow him outside and stop his car. If you didn’t see the guy take something and he’s in his car , especially with an older man and two kids, then there’s nothing you can do and just make a mental note and forget it.
I talked to a buddy who was stopped outside guitar center to check his bag one day and it really offended him. from a feedback point of view it’s not worth it. The “I’m with security and you have to submit” attitude is wrong and bad for business. It should be , " we appreciate your cooperation and understanding" which is why it will eventually fail and go away.

Stores do have a right and even a necessity to prevent loss from shoplifters both external and internal. I doubt any measures they take will be more convenient for the honest customers, so at some point those customers have to use a little patience and understanding unless they prefer to do all their shopping on the impersonal Internet.
Personally I hope it doesn’t come to that. I think the human interaction is a good thing, even with it’s inevitable problems.

In this particular case, I think the employees were wrong but human interaction takes at least two parties and the customer in question was a bit of an ass. He could have easily avoided escalating the incident and still voiced his objection to the bag check. He purposely made it worse out of some sense of defending his rights. Even if he is technically correct I think he’s a jerk to stress that over an easier resolution for him and his family.
OTOH if I was the manager’s boss, I’d ask"What the fuck were you thinking? and “Don’t you EVER do that again!”

517

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
My guess is this same customer who went out of his way to protest and assert his rights here submits at the airport.

[/QUOTE]

Maybe because airport security is authorized by law and designed to promote public safety, including the safety of the person being checked, whereas bag checks are voluntary by law and designed to promote the interests of a private business.

518

[QUOTE=magellan01]
It’s a law of The Universe. See Cosmic Code, Article 6, Subsection 2.d, under the heading: Justifications and Allowances for Characterzations of Asshole, Jerk, Self-Righteous Prick, Self-Centered Cock Sucker, Self-Important Shithead, Egomaniacal Self-Fellater, or any combination of the aforementioned.

Hope that helps.
[/QUOTE]

It does. I never realized before that it was illegal for me to defend my personal liberties.

Oh by the way, I don’t think you ever answered my question (although I may have missed the post): do you believe that when leaving a store, you have a right of privacy to your purse and pockets but not your bag o’ stuff?
If not, then what exactly is the difference then if they ask you to open up your purse ond/or pocket?
If so, then at what point to you get the right of privacy to your bag? In your car? At your house?

519

[QUOTE=SaintCad]
It does. I never realized before that it was illegal for me to defend my personal liberties.
[/QUOTE]

You simply need to weigh the costs and benefits to doing so. And the non-assholes among us think that the inconvenience of others shold enter the equation.

[QUOTE=SaintCad]
Oh by the way, I don’t think you ever answered my question (although I may have missed the post): do you believe that when leaving a store, you have a right of privacy to your purse and pockets but not your bag o’ stuff?
If not, then what exactly is the difference then if they ask you to open up your purse ond/or pocket?
If so, then at what point to you get the right of privacy to your bag? In your car? At your house?
[/QUOTE]

This again? Peeking into the bag of goods that you paid for fifty feet ago does not equal a cavity search. Both are valid steps to be taken, considering the possible offense. Now, you want to make this a slippery slope argument, (though not of the fallacious flavor) saying that because one can “arbitrarily” move the line then we can’t draw any line at all. To that I say bullshit. The apparatus we have for dealing with situations like this is judgement. Again, one most weight the costs of a range of behaviors. Without this the Supreme Court would agree to hear every single case that it is petitioned to hear. Now, granted, not everyone will assess the costs the same way, so there is room for people to not make the choice that I would have made and not fall into the asshole camp. But there are also those decisions that, though while being supported by the law, make someone a screaming asshole. It’s really that simple.

Let me ask you, you’re walking across a crosswalk in Manhattan, doing everything right, suddenly a car comes around the corner and shots in front of you. If you don’t stop walking immediatley, you will be hit. Do you stop? Or, because you have the law on your side and the guy is breaking the law in numerous ways, continue to walk? If you insisted on proceeding in a manner that the law allows you to, is that a noble act. Or is it the act of an idiot?

Scenario 2: As I mentioned earlier (and people conveniently have ignored it), as to this great offense of everyone’s bag’s being checked and that somehow being magically contorted into you, personally, being viewed as a thief. How about the nightclub scenario? You’re at a dance club. You wnat to go outside for some reason. It’s cold, so you put your hands in your pockets. You decide to go back in. The bouncer asks to see the stamp on your hand. Is he viewing you as a dishonest sneak? A liar? After all, you already paid your twenty bucks. Do you take your hand out of your pocket? Or do you walk ten feet away and call the cops than put your hand back in your pocket demending that you be allowed re-entry without being insulted so horribly by puling your hand out and showing a stamp?

Scenario 3: At my healthclub I have to be buzzed in the door. To do so I first have to give my membership number. This takes extra time and if I’m in a hurry I sometimes find it annoying. I pay a lot of money to be able to come to that club, how dare they assume tyhat I am not a member and attempting to gain entry illegally and unfairly! Right? So my choice is to allow twenty seconds of unpleasantness transpire when I go, or to take them to court demanding that I have smooth access to the facilities without me being treated like a cheat. and let’s say the law says I am right, then I force the club to find some way to allow me unfettered access while stil keeping out new members. I’m sure it could be done. I’m also fairly certian that it would lead to a less pleasant club experience on the whole, or necessitate an increase in dues to pay for the new system.

I’m sure you can come up with other situations—probably better ones—where the law might technically be on your side, but making a federal case out of it at that particular time would make you an asshole.

520

I think those making the “asshole” argument are basically saying that while you have no legal obligation to hold the door open for someone whose hands are full of luggage, you should do it anyway because it is nice to do someone a little favor now and then when the cost to you is minimal and may confer a substantial benefit to someone else. Failure to do so breaches no legal duty, but a social one.

This is why I really don’t mind much when merchant politely asks me for a bag check. I don’t feel as though I am being accused of wrongdoing.

However, if a customer should decline to comply for any reason, even if that reason is that the customer is just not in the mood that day, then maybe that makes the customer a temporary asshole, but the merchant should just let it go.