# Man at mall arrested for wearing "Peace on Earth" T-shirt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293 "2003-03-05T18:14:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/61 "2003-03-06T18:01:24Z")
Where are these shoppers who were allegedly stopped, and who allegedly complained to mall security about the shirts? Shouldn’t they come forward in the interest of justice? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/62 "2003-03-06T18:03:23Z")
Concerning security guards: I’ve been one. All you need is a pulse and a clean criminal record. My pay was above minimum wage, but not by enough to brag about. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/63 "2003-03-06T18:07:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThunderBug \* > \*\*And if people would read the police report, there was one security guard, the other was a police officer. After Downs was confronted by security and became beligerent, Officer Myers of the Guilderland Police force was passing by and Williams asked for his assistance. So a police officer was present through most of the confrontation and Downs was still arrested. \*\* Well, the devil’s in the details, i suppose. I’m not sure that i would classify refusing to take off a t-shirt that said “Peace on Earth” as belligerent. Actually, even the security guard’s statement suggests that Downs the elder was anything but belligerent; it seems apparent that he just made it politely and calmly clear that he would not remove his shirt, and nor would he exit the mall, He also made it quite clear that he was prepared to be arrested for tis behaviour. And i’m quite well aware that there was a policeman present, but he was not acting anywhere near as ridiculously as the security guard. It was the guard who determined that Downs’s shirt was so offensive that it had to be taken off, and the guard who wanted him to leave the mall. Once the guard decided that he wanted Downs out of the mall, and Downs failed to comply, the policeman, as others have noted on this thread, really had no choice but to make the arrest. Even Downs, in some of the articles i’ve read, had no criticism for the cop, who was constrained by the law and was essentially required to arrest a person who failed to leave private property. And, on reflection, i’m not sure what’s wrong with the “rent-a-cop” reference to security guards. Isn’t that a pretty straightforward and concise definition of the job? This guy was more like a “rent-an-idiot,” IMO. And, as **jr8** asks: > [@](#): > > Where are these shoppers who were allegedly stopped, and who allegedly complained to mall security about the shirts? Shouldn’t they come forward in the interest of justice? This is exactly what i asked in my longer post, above. If he was willing to press charges, and knew that the issue might go to court, why did the security guard not ask at least one of these shoppers - perhaps the ones who allegedly had a confrontation with the Downs men outside Macy’s - to add his or her name to the complaint? Maybe because there was no harrassment of shoppers going on? Sorry, but we can only go with the evidence at hand, and the police report has a single complainant - the security guard - who has every reason to, err, embellish his story to make it look more convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/64 "2003-03-06T18:19:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Concerning security guards: I’ve been one. All you need is a pulse and a clean criminal record. My pay was above minimum wage, but not by enough to brag about. \*\* Been there, done that, wielded the Maglite. In the month I spent in the job, my opinion of security guards went from “pathetic” to “subhuman”. It’s a horrible job, and (judging from my coworkers) those who do it for the long term are either incapable of getting other work or get off on the miniscule power trip they get from harassing people. It’s on the “telemarketer” scale of employment, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/65 "2003-03-06T19:07:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*Well, maybe. > > The front page of the police report makes no mention of harrassment. It does say that the security guard “[r]eceived complaints that they were stopping other shoppers.” Stopping other shoppers IS harrassment. > [@](#): > > Now, let’s look at the actual statements from the witnesses - the Macy’s store detective and the mall security guard. Let’s… > [@](#): > > The Macy’s store detective, Katie Light, is the first authority figure to enter the story. And all her statement tells us is that she was approached by a customer and told that “these two gentlemen [the two Downs men] were having a verbal dispute with another group of individuals.” There is absolutely no indication here of who started the dispute. Correct, but we do know the dispute was with Downs who was wearing their new shirts. > [@](#): > > For all we know at this point, it could have been caused by someone coming up to Downs and calling him a commie peacenik. Irrelevant who started it. There was still a report of a verbal confrontation, due to the shirts. > [@](#): > > Further, the store detective never says that she told mall security that the Downs men were harrassing other shoppers. If we are to believe her testimony, she simply “informed them of the two individuals wearing the anti-war t-shirts.” Yes, how else would you describe them? They were two men involved in a verbal dispute. How could they be recognized? By their anti-war t-shirts. > [@](#): > > As far as i can see, actually, the store detective acted quite reasonably, given that she was informed of a dispute that might have escalated into shouting or violence, for all she knew. Which is why she called security, especially with the previous protests in the mall causing a disturbance. > [@](#): > > Now, let’s look at the testimony of security guard Robert Williams. He says that he was responding to a “complaint regarding persons protesting in front of Macy’s against the pending war with Iraq.” Well, given that he was responding to the call from Katie Light, the Macy’s store detective, he was NOT, in fact, responding to a call about protestors. Do you have some transcripts of the exact conversation between the Light and Williams? Seems to me, given the previous protestors, that it isn’t a stretch to assume that these two were protestors and called such by Light. Why? Previous incident, anti-war shirts, reports verbal confrontations. > [@](#): > > Light’s statement indicates quite clearly that she informed mall security about a “verbal dispute,” and that there were two men with anti-war t-shirts. The fact that these men were the initiators of the dispute is nowhere stated in Light’s statement, and i think it is reasonable to assume that if the shopper who complained to Light had stated who started the argument, this fact would have made it into her report. The shopper who reported it was an outside observer, only reporting the general disturbance. > [@](#): > > But it didn’t, and so far it seems that it is nothing but the security guard’s imagination (or prejudice, perhaps) that has assigned blame for the dispute to the Downs men. The verbal dispute reported wasn’t because of a shoe sale. It was due to the shirts they were wearing. > [@](#): > > Later in his statement, the security guard alleges that he observed the Downses “walking through the common area…[and] stopping customers to express why they were wearing the shirts.” He then says that he asked the men to “stop bothering customers and to please cover or remove the shirts.” > > Well, _if_ the two men were stopping other customers (something they both deny in all the stories i’ve read), then why was it necessary for them to remove the shirts? Why was it not enough, in the security guard’s mind (i know, oxymoron), that they simply stop harrassing other shoppers? His insistence that they remove the shirts suggests, to me at least, that this was the only thing they were doing “wrong,” and that their so-called protesting was something added to make him look better. If Down’s was indeed using his shirt as the preface for bothering customers, asking him to cover or remove the tool of instigation seems perfectly reasonable. > [@](#): > > And the front page of the police report blatantly contradicts the testimony of Katie Light and Robert Williams. No it doesnt. In fact, it supports it. > [@](#): > > As i mentioned above, the the report says that the security guards “[r]eceived complaints that they were stopping other shoppers.” But, as we have seen, according to Light’s statement, they received no such complaint from her. And if there was another complainant, why was his or her name not mentioned in the report/s? Light’s statement was the complaint of verbal sparring by Downs by an outside witness. Williams claims he saw Downs harassing customers. They don’t contradict each other because they are two separate claims. > [@](#): > > So, to review, we have a single security guard, whose statement is not consistent with that of the original reporter of the incident (store detective Light), and who is apparently the only person who saw the alleged “harrassment.” There is no inconsistancy as pointed out. They are two separte incidences. And just because no one complained about being harassed does not mean it didn’t happen. > [@](#): > > It sounds to me like the whole “harrassment” or “protesting” issue is little more than a cover-your-ass to make the security guard look like he was actually doing something useful rather than just “harrassing” a shopper because he didn’t like the ideas expressed on his t-shirt. We do not know the political views of the security guard, do we? Black police officers are present at Klan rallies to protect the Klansmen. You don’t have to agree with the politics of a person to do your job. It could be just as easily argued that Downs is denying harassing shoppers to cover his ass and further his cause. Isn’t Downs a lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/66 "2003-03-06T19:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Concerning security guards: I’ve been one. All you need is a pulse and a clean criminal record. My pay was above minimum wage, but not by enough to brag about. \*\* Where you sweaty and beetle-browed? ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/67 "2003-03-06T19:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*And, as **jr8** asks:This is exactly what i asked in my longer post, above. If he was willing to press charges, and knew that the issue might go to court, why did the security guard not ask at least one of these shoppers - perhaps the ones who allegedly had a confrontation with the Downs men outside Macy’s - to add his or her name to the complaint? Maybe because there was no harrassment of shoppers going on? Sorry, but we can only go with the evidence at hand, and the police report has a single complainant - the security guard - who has every reason to, err, embellish his story to make it look more convincing. \*\* You assume that people care enough about this to actually take time out of their lives for someone bothering them at a mall. I highly doubt they stuck around to see the outcome, especially if the confrontation with Downs was as lengthy as it sounds. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > Been there, done that, wielded the Maglite. In the month I spent in the job, my opinion of security guards went from “pathetic” to “subhuman”. It’s a horrible job, and (judging from my coworkers) those who do it for the long term are either incapable of getting other work or get off on the miniscule power trip they get from harassing people. It’s on the “telemarketer” scale of employment, frankly. So we should judge all security guards by your experience. Gotcha. So in that vein, the African-American I had to fire for stealing and bringing a gun to work (in a bank) means that all black people are theiving, gun-toting people not to be trusted. Gotcha. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/68 "2003-03-06T19:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThunderBug \* > \*\*Correct, but we do know the dispute was with Downs who was wearing their new shirts. > > Irrelevant who started it. There was still a report of a verbal confrontation, due to the shirts.\*\* I see, so if i’m wearing a shirt that you don’t like, and you start badgering me about it, then it is my fault? And if there’s a confrontation, who started it is irrelevant when assiging blame? Give me a break. > [@](#): > > **Yes, how else would you describe them? They were two men involved in a verbal dispute. How could they be recognized? By their anti-war t-shirts.** Well if i did in fact know that they were causing the disturbance, i think i would probably mention that to the security guard, and i would also mention it the report i gave to the cops. The point i’m making here is that, at this point, there is no evidence of harrassment of other shoppers, and, even if the confrontation was “caused” by the shirts, the actual verbal disagreement could well have been started by other people. And, in my book ,that does not makes the Downses responsible, no matter what they were wearing on their shirts. > [@](#): > > **Which is why she called security, especially with the previous protests in the mall causing a disturbance.** I have no problem with that, although i think security should treat each case on its merits, and should realise that two men in anti-war t-shirts is not the same as a large demonstration carrying signs. > [@](#): > > **Do you have some transcripts of the exact conversation between the Light and Williams? Seems to me, given the previous protestors, that it isn’t a stretch to assume that these two were protestors and called such by Light. Why? Previous incident, anti-war shirts, reports verbal confrontations.** No, i don’t. But i would expect that someone like a store detective, familiar with the procedure of reporting crime to the police, and aware that her statement might well be used in a trial, would include every little detail of what she saw and what she said. If she didn’t we can’t be expected to make inferences about what is not there in the report. > [@](#): > > **The shopper who reported it was an outside observer, only reporting the general disturbance.** That’s right - a general disturbance; nowhere is it indicated that the Downs men caused this disturbance. And, again, simply wearing a t-shirt is not sufficient to “cause” the disturbance. The instigators were the first people to actually start talking to the other people about the shirts, and we have no evidence as to whether or not this was the Downs men. > [@](#): > > **The verbal dispute reported wasn’t because of a shoe sale. It was due to the shirts they were wearing.** Again, true, but if it started because other people simply began abusing the Downses for wearing the shirts, then it is hardly the Downses’ fault. > [@](#): > > **If Down’s was indeed using his shirt as the preface for bothering customers, asking him to cover or remove the tool of instigation seems perfectly reasonable.** Maybe, but why not just say to him: “You can wear the shirt, but if you’re going to harrass customers you’ll have to leave”? There is no indication anywhere that the security guard tried this, and again, we have only his word that the Downs men were indeed bothering customers. > [@](#): > > \*\*No it doesnt. In fact, it supports it. > > Light’s statement was the complaint of verbal sparring by Downs by an outside witness. Williams claims he saw Downs harassing customers. They don’t contradict each other because they are two separate claims.\*\* Yes, but the report stated that Williams “[r]eceived complaints that they were stopping other shoppers.” But Light’s statement, which is the only “complaint” we know of that reached the security guard, made no mention of stopping customers. And Williams claims that he knew the Downs men were stopping shoppers because he saw them doing it, not because he received a complaint that they were doing it. This is simply semantic, i know, but it’s the sort of thing that one is supposed to be clear on when making a police statement. I can almost hear Downs’s lawyer in court, to the security guard: “Well, did you find out that they were harrassing customers from a complaint, or did you see these actions yourself? Because the front of the police report indicates the former, but your statement indicates the latter. And store detective Light never mentioned harrassment in her statment. Which one was it, sir? Or was the whole harrassment thing just made up to cover the fact that you overreacted to a t-shirt?” (duscliamer: IANAL, and this example is drawn only from my vast experience of watching Law and Order) > [@](#): > > **There is no inconsistency as pointed out. They are two separte incidences. And just because no one complained about being harassed does not mean it didn’t happen.** True, but if no-one complained, why does the police report say that they did? And why did neither the security guard nor the police officer ask one of the allegedly harrassed shoppers to write up a statement attesting to the harrassment? The total absence of complainants, apart from mall representatives, means that it boils down to the security guard’s word against Downs’s. And, as **Ed** said: > [@](#): > > I never indicated that the security guards are less trustworthy than Downs, simply that they are not necessarily any more. > > \ > > Rather, I’m simply arguing that the account of the guard prior to the police officer arriving is suspect for reasons of consistency and lack of evidence, and simply being a security guard doesn’t dispell those suspicions any more than Downs being Downs does for him. I agree totally with this statement. > [@](#): > > **We do not know the political views of the security guard, do we? Black police officers are present at Klan rallies to protect the Klansmen. You don’t have to agree with the politics of a person to do your job.** No, we don’t, but in the absence of any real evidence indicating that the Downses were harrassing other customers, i was drawing my own conclusion, just the same as you are. > [@](#): > > \*\*It could be just as easily argued that Downs is denying harassing shoppers to cover his ass and further his cause. Isn’t Downs a lawyer? \*\* Sure it could, but, as i said above, i see no particular reason to find either person more believeable than the other, so all that remains is the “evidence,” which seems pretty sketchy and unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/69 "2003-03-06T20:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThunderBug \* > **You assume that people care enough about this to actually take time out of their lives for someone bothering them at a mall. I highly doubt they stuck around to see the outcome, especially if the confrontation with Downs was as lengthy as it sounds.** It would certainly be in the interest of the mall to find them. > [@](#): > > \*\*So we should judge all security guards by your experience. Gotcha. So in that vein, the African-American I had to fire for stealing and bringing a gun to work (in a bank) means that all black people are theiving, gun-toting people not to be trusted. Gotcha. :rolleyes: \*\* Did I say that? I don’t remember saying that. I reported my personal experience and appended the appropriate caveats to my statement, and I’ll thank you not to build a little strawman in my image. But since we’re apparently getting creative with our examples, by your reasoning, if a Jewish man wearing a yarmulke was harassed by a group of anti-Semites in a mall, it would be the fault of the Jew for wearing the yarmulke in the first place. No? ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/70 "2003-03-06T20:25:41Z")
Caveats? The “in my opinion”? I don’t call that much of a caveat. It’s ok to call someone “subhuman” if you preface it by "in my opinion? Or are you refering to “judging by my coworkers” in which you go on to belittle the people in a whole profession (even if it’s not much of a profession). Again, not much of a caveat. Can you prove that Downs was harassed by people who disagreed with his anti-war stance? Until you can, then your creative example is useless. Actually, it’s useless even if you could. But that is just “my opinion”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/71 "2003-03-06T21:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThunderBug \* > **Caveats? The “in my opinion”? I don’t call that much of a caveat. It’s ok to call someone “subhuman” if you preface it by "in my opinion? Or are you refering to “judging by my coworkers” in which you go on to belittle the people in a whole profession (even if it’s not much of a profession). Again, not much of a caveat.** It **is** my opinion, and it **was** my experience. Are you a security guard, or do you know many security guards? Do you have a different experience to share, or are you just being snarky? > [@](#): > > **Can you prove that Downs was harassed by people who disagreed with his anti-war stance?** Nope – I was just reading the information **you** presented. \*\* > [@](#): > > Until you can, then your creative example is useless. \*\* Again, that was just following your own example. \*\* > [@](#): > > Actually, it’s useless even if you could. But that is just “my opinion”. \*\* To which you’re entitled. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/72 "2003-03-06T22:27:25Z")
Maybe a bit snarky. And yes, I have known quite a few security guards. The security guard at the bank I used to work for is one. He was kindly old gentleman, a bit on the perverted side (loved dirty jokes), but still nice none the less. Never saw him on a power trip. The security guard that just retired here after his wife died. Worked here for overy twenty years on midnight shift. Very nice man, devoted to his family who worked those years on midnight shift for the health benefits for his sickly wife. Had to call the police on vandals on a few occasions, I don’t call that “subhuman” and take offense at anyone who would. The security guard that replaced him just recently asked about how a co-workers father was doing after he underwent 12 hour surgery to remove a brain tumor. Caring for other people’s pain seems pretty human to me. In fact, I’ve never had a bad experience with a security guard. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t power-tripping, moronic guards out there. I just think it’s wrong to generalize about them all because you didn’t get along with them, or they didn’t get along with you. That was the point of my example, it had nothing to do with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/73 "2003-03-06T22:52:54Z")
Fair enough. Maybe it was just the company I worked for. The only reasonably well-adjusted one out of the dozen or so of the bunch I worked with was doing it as a second job because he needed the cash. The management were even worse. But at least none of them were “beetle-browed”. None of which speaks to the credibility of the individual security guard in question. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/74 "2003-03-07T02:14:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ThunderBug \* > **You assume that people care enough about this to actually take time out of their lives for someone bothering them at a mall. I highly doubt they stuck around to see the outcome, especially if the confrontation with Downs was as lengthy as it sounds.** Well, this story has gained a great amount of media attention, local and national. And in all the stories i’ve managed to find on the web, there is not one case of someone who was in the mall that day contacting the media and saying “Hey, i was there, and those guys were harrassing people while they were shopping. The security guard was just doing his job and making sure that i could shop in peace.” Given the tendency of many members of the public to do just this sort of thing, the absence of such claims further raises my level of skepticism regarding the supposed harrassment of shoppers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/75 "2003-03-07T15:14:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > I see, so if i’m wearing a shirt that you don’t like, and you start badgering me about it, then it is my fault? And if there’s a confrontation, who started it is irrelevant when assiging blame? Give me a break. I’ve gotta agree with this 100%. For instance, if someone wore into that mall a T-shirt with a big smiley-face and “Have A Nice Day” on it, and I heckled them about the shirt, resulting in a confrontation, I’d be the one who should be kicked out of the mall, not them, however repugnant such a T-shirt would be. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293/76 "2003-03-07T15:46:09Z")
Well by the way people descibed the mall, maybe nobody wants to admit that they shop there. 😃 And I haven’t heard anyone coming forward and saying “I saw these guys walking around in their shirts and they never bothered anyone as far as I could tell.” Of course, the people the witness saw argueing with Downs haven’t come froward either. Maybe that was a lie too. A vast right wing conspiracy perhaps. Or, as I said, people are just indifferent. As for who started a confrontation, I have no problem thinking that someone else confronted Downs first. Of course, given the volitivity of this issue, I find it hard to believe he didn’t expect such. An anti-war statement is seen by many as anti-American (regardless if it actually is or not) and quite a different message then “Have a Nice Day”. Downs was afforded the opportunity to continue to shop if he covered up. He refused. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-at-mall-arrested-for-wearing-peace-on-earth-t-shirt/159293.md?page=3)